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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8052614" data-attributes="member: 6801228">Look, I get you hate numbers. But I've shown this is wrong multiple times. Like, I think I've done the math in this thread alone three times.Until level 11, the monk does fine in terms of damage. I'm just going to post a whole slew of level 5 +4 mod breakdowns. Again.And you know what, I'll order them by final numbers, lowest first[EDIT] Monk throwing two daggers 2d6+8 = 15Shortbow Rogue with sneak attack 4d6+4 = 18Sword and Board Fighter/Paladin, with no resources 2d8+12 = 21Dual-Wielding Hunter Ranger 2d6+1d8+12 = 23.5Greatsword Fighter/Paladin, with no resources 4d6+8 = 24Monk without Ki&nbsp; does 2d8+1d6+12 = 24.5Polearm Master Feat Variant Human Fighter/Paladin, 2d10+1d4+12 = 25.5Greatsword Totem Barbarian with rage&nbsp; 4d6+12 = 26Warlock EB+AB+Hex 2d10+2d6+8 = 26Archery Hunter Ranger with Hunter's Mark&nbsp; 3d8+2d6+8 = 28.5Greatsword Zealot Barbarian with rage 5d6+14 = 31.5The monk, with no ki, is only beaten in damage by a raging Barbarian, a V. Human polearm class who was able to increase their strength at level 4 while still getting the feat, or a class using a spell.And the Monk is within 2 pts of average damage of the Totem barbarian, the warlock and the Human.So. How? How can the monk's &quot;base attack&quot; not be on par with the &quot;base attacks&quot; of every other class. Is every single person running a variant human polearm master with a magic halberd? By &quot;base attack&quot; did you mean to include resources like Rage and Hunters Mark/Hex (which I included, as well as TM's &quot;baseline&quot;)If you are just going to claim that &quot;numbers can be manipulated&quot; again, then show me. Show me how using the same variables I just used, you can manipulate these numbers to put the monk on the bottom. Heck, Rogue sucks so I'll accept dropping it to second place.Wait... need to edit, just because I know your likely first response will be about AC and how terrible the monk being in melee would be. Monk throwing two daggers from range is the lowest. Dropping the monks damage by an average of 9.5</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 8052614, member: 6801228"] Look, I get you hate numbers. But I've shown this is wrong multiple times. Like, I think I've done the math in this thread alone three times. Until level 11, the monk does fine in terms of damage. I'm just going to post a whole slew of level 5 +4 mod breakdowns. Again. And you know what, I'll order them by final numbers, lowest first [EDIT] Monk throwing two daggers 2d6+8 = 15 Shortbow Rogue with sneak attack 4d6+4 = 18 Sword and Board Fighter/Paladin, with no resources 2d8+12 = 21 Dual-Wielding Hunter Ranger 2d6+1d8+12 = 23.5 Greatsword Fighter/Paladin, with no resources 4d6+8 = 24 Monk without Ki does 2d8+1d6+12 = 24.5 [B]Polearm Master Feat Variant Human[/B] Fighter/Paladin, 2d10+1d4+12 = 25.5 Greatsword Totem Barbarian [B]with rage[/B] 4d6+12 = 26 Warlock [B]EB+AB+Hex [/B]2d10+2d6+8 = 26 Archery Hunter Ranger [B]with Hunter's Mark[/B] 3d8+2d6+8 = 28.5 Greatsword Zealot Barbarian [B]with rage[/B] 5d6+14 = 31.5 The monk, [B][U]with no ki[/U][/B], is only beaten in damage by a raging Barbarian, a V. Human polearm class who was able to increase their strength at level 4 while still getting the feat, or a class using a spell. And the Monk is within 2 pts of average damage of the Totem barbarian, the warlock and the Human. So. How? How can the monk's "base attack" not be on par with the "base attacks" of every other class. Is every single person running a variant human polearm master with a magic halberd? By "base attack" did you mean to include resources like Rage and Hunters Mark/Hex (which I included, as well as TM's "baseline") If you are just going to claim that "numbers can be manipulated" again, then show me. Show me how using the same variables I just used, you can manipulate these numbers to put the monk on the bottom. Heck, Rogue sucks so I'll accept dropping it to second place. Wait... need to edit, just because I know your likely first response will be about AC and how terrible the monk being in melee would be. Monk throwing two daggers from range is the lowest. Dropping the monks damage by an average of [B][U][I]9.5[/I][/U][/B] [/QUOTE]

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