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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8052858" data-attributes="member: 6801228">I see you left the Warlock with hex and the Ranger with Hunter's mark. Guess spells aren't resources. And (which makes this awesome) since you took out the PAM Fighter and the Barbarians, if we agree spells are resources, that puts the monk on the top. Going to be interesting to see how you square this.Tanget: Ranger is not going to be using a Rapier unless they are variant human and took Dual-Wielding, because they kept pace with the +4 ASI. Rapier's aren't light weapons. Unless you are saying they bought a shield and Rapier to switch to when they are low on hp?Ah, you left them on purpose because of long duration. Also, let us take your numbers real quick. In orderWarlock  AC: 14Shortbow Rogue   AC: 16Archery Hunter Ranger AC: 17Monk AC: 17 (Wisdom has been 16 every single time we've discussed this)Dual-Wielding Hunter Ranger AC: 17 (but would probably fall back to shield for AC 19 and would be using a rapier, not short swords)Greatsword Fighter/Paladin AC :18Sword and Board Fighter/Paladin AC: 20So, monk was potentially top damage, and for AC at 17 they are nearly as good as everyone else. I note that the entire line up has either Half-Plate or Full Plate (750 and 1500 gp respectively) so, my Monk is certainly wealthy with all that change in his pocket, since everyone has been given their best mundane gear possible. To take your math, that is 1-11 missing, which is 55. So the Monk only has a 45% chance of being hit. And this is the end of the road, I've been doing great, and am only now starting to feel hurt. I probably have more hp left than the Greatsword fighter, who is pulling out his shield.Also, being in LOS isn't risky at all. I still have deflect missiles. With only a 45% chance to hit, and the ability to cancel a single ranged attack, unless you are dropping spells on my head or focusing fire with 3 or more mooks, I'm very likely to be perfectly fine.But, all of this is ignoring something, you said I proved your point? Was it this point? "the base attack of the monk isn't on par with the base attacks of any other classes. "Because I disproved that point. The Base attack of the monk is on par. Their AC is right near par unless your party is swimming in wealth by level 5. What you are trying to prove now is that their AC is too low to take advantage of their base attack. Which is being done by first putting them after all their resources have been spent, and assuming they are injured to some degree.You seem to assume that, but I wouldn't say I agree. Because the monk is a skirmish fighter, they should be going in, picking off a weak enemy and getting out.I'm wondering why everyone in your games doesn't use shields and cover all the time. You are putting such a high value on the ability of a fighter to stop using their normal load out and switch to shield and sword between fights. Everyone is doing it. So, why aren't they just building to be shield users from the start? Also, your talk of LOS makes me think your games feature lots of ranged attacks. Are they all spells? Because the monk's deflect arrows and AC mean that they are actually the safest in that situation. In fact, a forest with a bunch of archers trying to kill you? That is a monk's playground. Because the enemy will tend to spread out to target the party, meaning the monk can pick them off one by one. But frankly, if this is your best argument for the monk's shortcomings, I've got some bad news for you. Even if they are at 1/3 their hp, 0 ki and still forced to fight on for whatever reason you want to make sense. They can have access to better range. I was trying to not use the Elf ability to use a longbow (which jumps the monk back up to 17 damage) but I don't need to. All of your players should use a Kensei then. Not only do they have the ability to use longbows but they can do so with the Kensei Shot Bonus action, meaning they deal +2d4 damage, taking that 17 to 22 damage. Back to better than anyone else with a shield. Oh, and they can do agile parry too. So by swapping one of their attacks from a staff to a punch, which changes their damage to 23.5 (a loss of only a single point) and gives them +2 AC, putting them at 19, inline with the rangers. Sure, I had to go to a subclass, but since you insist +2 AC to get 19 is the most powerful defensive tool anyone could have, and that everyone switches to shields when they get low on health, if they don't have viable ranged attacks. Well, play an elf monk. Play a kensei monk. And then ask why the heck your value as a class is being discussed at how you do when you are stripped of resources and left over half dead to keep fighting. That isn't a "shortcoming" of the class, that is a scenario designed to be lost.</blockquote>

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