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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8052960" data-attributes="member: 6801228">I brought up the Kensei because you seemed determined that no matter what I showed, that the AC was the problem. Originally it was the damage. Their base attacks were too low. And as soon as I showed that in melee they weren't it was that melee was far too dangerous for a monk on their last legs, so they would never use that damage. While a fighter in that same scenario would pull out a shield and magically be safe. So, I pointed out, hey there is a monk that can do that. I mean, let us be real for a second. We have Sun Soul Monk which operates at range. Four Elements Monk is ki-heavy, and the worst subclass. Open Hand and Drunken Master Monks are best in melee. Kensei can do either Melee or Ranged. Shadow has teleporting if they are in the right environment (which still lowers their damage to the same as the longbow elf monk). That is half of the subclasses doing decently. And, we are ignoring the fact that if the Monk has used all their ki, with their normal mobility and hit-and-run tactics, they likely have more than half their hp, not less. The drunken Monk for example gets a free disengage when they flurry, and the Open Hand can shut off reactions if they hit with their flurry. Both of them can damage focus, then get out, avoiding retaliation. You are picking the worst possible way to build the monk, then saying the monk is bad. Yes, the monk is likely to pick a +2/+1 race. Wood Elf is amazing for the monk. Not only giving them better AC, but giving Longbow proficiency for this inevitable time when they are going to be out of Ki, low on HP and it is too dangerous to go into melee. Or, if I must go human, I go variant human, and grab a feat that will buff my scores, to get that 16/16Is the Monk MADer than other classes? Sure, but since this is bog standard stuff to just take one of the many races that can do this, I do not see how this is an unreasonable standard. Okay, I understand that monks need short rests. I get that. I understand.But if you are out of resources, nearly out of hp, and still fighting that isn't a problem for just the monk. That is the part I don't understand why you are insisting the monk is "unique" in this fact. I've never once talked about a class and say "Well, wizards really suffer. If you take away all their spells, build them with low Dex, and put them at half hp, what can they even do?" The monk is not "in peril" any more than anyone else out of resources and nearly out of hp. And you know what? If they are truly in that situation. Honestly. Then going for the long range, less damage option is perfectly fine. 20 AC is great. I won't deny it. But 20 AC can still be hit. And if you are 5th level and at a 1/3 of your hp? You have about 16 hp. That is one maybe two hits. And sure, the monk would be at 12 hp, and even more at risk. But that risk is fairly proportional. Nobody is doing "good" at that point. Yes, you are right. Are all your ranged enemies spellcasters? That might explain why you don't see how great Deflect Missiles isAlso, how much focus fire are you doing? You said you have six PCs normally, do you have all six archers focus on one PC? At an average of 7.5 per hit, that could be as much as 45 damage. That nearly kills any member of the party. So, most DMs spread the attacks out, hitting multiple party members. Which means, against six archers, you might get as many as two focusing on the monk. With about a 50/50 chance to hit, that means it is likely one misses. Which makes it a single ranged attack. Which the monk cancels. You generally have to attack them three or more times to overcome Deflect Missiles. And any other class that gets hit? They can't do anything about it. I'm not using a different lense, you seem to refuse to see that a monk can do melee and skirmish at the same time. If you mean "front-liner" like "stand next to as many enemies as possible and draw all their attacks" then, you are right. Monks suck as front-liners. So does most anyone. You'd never tell the rogue to go do that. Or the Cleric.Do you know how many barbarians I've seen do this, and within a round or two they are telling us they are about to drop? Focused fire from monsters is brutal. If you have low hp, you don't do that. Of course, if you have low Hp, you find a way to heal. Because you are in danger.So, the fighter hasn't used their second wind, action surge, or battle master superiority dice, but the monk has used all their ki and his below half hp. And they can't be healed by the healers, becuase... I guess the healers are out of spells for the day? This is why I'm not convinced by your argument. You want to have your cake and eat it too. You want to say the monk damage is bad, but when I show it isn't, you insist that their AC is too low, and that they don't have the option to increase it at the cost of their damage, like the other classes can. Then it doesn't matter what the monk's damage is, you want to focus on AC. And so, we looked at ways the monk can attack from range and with their mobility and deflect missiles be very safe. And you responded with "see, their damage is bad". But at the same time. The Greatdsword Fighter is losing damage by swapping gear. And they have to do that between fights. They can't do it mid-fight without sacrificing a turn. So, you expect me to accept that they finished a fight. Were so bad off that they switched to defense mode, but were still pressing on, and then blame the monk class for that fact? And if you are getting in that situation enough that it is a standard tactic to start turtling... build a turtle to begin with. Don't take GW Fighter, do a defensive fighter with Sword and Board. Your damage will be less than the monks constantly, but when everyone presses on because everyone is hurt, you are still working at the same efficiency.Potions are an interesting choice for you to mention. If we assume the Fighter has full plate, can we assume that the monk has 30 basic healing potions? At 60d4+60 that is an average of 135 hp worth of healing. How many fights do we have to go through for the monk to be out of ki and low on hp at that point? Or, maybe they do go and buy a cloak of protection. At a max price of 500 they should easily be able to afford it, since the martials are spending between 750 and 1500 apiece. That puts the monk's AC at 18. Or maybe some Bracers of Defense for +2 AC... sounds kind of like a shield. They are Rare though, so it would be on the lower end to get them for 1500. Of course, puts the Monk at 19 AC. hmmm, it is almost like if you can give the monk a way to use their money to increase their surivability, they can do just as good as the other people using money to increase their surivability.The Monks shortcomings being running out of their primary resource, being beaten nearly to death, not being healed by their team, and getting no item support whatsoever.... Yeah, I totally see how this is a shortcoming for the monk. With no healing, no money, no friends, and less than half their hp, with no choice but to soldier on, they are in danger of being knocked out. Oh! And they can't be an optimal race choice, and you can't use any subclass abilities.Color me shocked and amazed.</blockquote>

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