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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Helldritch" data-source="post: 8053160" data-attributes="member: 6855114">Yep, one round of a hard fight. But people seems to count things in rounds, see the post of Esker. So I just added an easy/average fight with a hard fight. That gives about 10 to 12 total for 2 rounds of combat. This means the monk will run out of ki.Me: Damage without flurry is not good enough. Ki runs out too fast.You: Damage without Ki is fine... This contradict just about all other posts from the other math lovers... And Ki will not be used only for damage, stunning strike, patient defense etc...As long as they have Ki to fuel their Flurry. Once they run out, woupsi...Now we're talking about the core problem. Forget the rest of this thread. Concentrate on this paragraph. The rest for me is just mathematical gibberish and optimization which I do not like as it does not represent most players.1) I too, see a lot of monks in my games and they perform quite well, even at high level. I do give them a bit more Ki based on their wisdom, but even then they often run out of Ki. Fortunately, they can count on me for allowing short rests when really needed (and if the story and the narrative would be ok.) If for the reasons in parenthesis, a short rest can't be achieved at the end of the second fight, it will be at the end of the third.2) Wu Xia flavor might also be a thing. In the minds of many, a monk should be in an Oriental setting. So how to explain that Druids, a European trope, is worst than the monk. I don't think that flavor is the culprit but it might have some impact. 3) A misunderstanding of their abilities might be a clue. Or is it the fact that some abilities come too late where other classes could do it way before the monk? This one I do not know for sure.4) Is it because one of the subclass in the PHB is really bad? The ranger has one "two" and does not suffer the same stigma with the player base...5) You doubt it is AC and Damage. I claim that it is exactly this! But not the way you think it is.It is a matter of perception. Without Ki, the monk loses a lot of damage potential. You showed it yourself.Without Ki, the monk loses about 5 AC. You showed it yourself.It is exactly this abrupt drop in performance that must be affecting the players. Because the monk's Ki is so prevalent in all aspect of the special moves of the class, the expenditure of Ki is proportionate with the difficulty of a fight. An easy fight, might see an abysmal expenditure of Ki, whereas a difficult or deadly fight might see multiple expenditure of Ki with every attack (stunning strike, Flurry of blows or Patient defense).Other classes do not see this kind of set back. The GW wielder will do the same amount of damage wheter he can action surge or not. The casters will still have their cantrips and so on. But the monk can't even Flurry without Ki... The cost of Ki is almost in every special manoeuvers that the monk will do. Be it a stunning strike, patient defense, flurry of blows, step of the wind or a subclass abilities. All the monk's cool things are on a short supply resource.So in the mind of the monk player, he sees his friend playing other classes able to do their thing in almost optimal ways, while he can't. This must leave a bitter taste in the mouth and leave a bad impression.You said that monks were fine in your games. Do you allow short rests on a regular basis (about once per 2 or 3 encounters)?If so, you're just like me. And monks are usually able to manage their Ki so that they are not too starve of their special powers.But what about those that think that the monk sucks?Do they rests as per the guidelines, or are rests so rare that Ki is always depleted.It might be related to that because I often see threads that claims that short rests break the dynamic and the narrative of a game.It might just be this. The perceptive drop when Ki is depleted. It simply does not pass in the mind of many.</blockquote>

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