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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Spatzimaus" data-source="post: 576741" data-attributes="member: 3051">This discussion comes up pretty often.  I'll try to break it down a bit; here goes.1> Monks get abilities at every level.  This is true, no one's arguing it.  It's a plus.  However, I'd say roughly half of these abilities are useless (or nearly so) at the level you get them.   Timeless Body, any speed over 50', etc. all fall into this category.Only a few high-level ones are worth the sacrifice.  In fact, I'd go out of my way to AVOID getting Perfect Self, because outsiders get hedged by Protection spells and can't be raised... not worth dinky DR.2> Flexibility is power.  Monks have no flexibility.  Oh sure, they'll get some good abilities, but they don't really vary as you go up in level.  A level 15 Monk is the same as every other level 15 Monk, except for slight variations in stats and which Feats were selected with the general slots.  You can't multiclass well, and you can't use armor or most weapons.  In combat, it's pretty much "run up to bad guy and punch him", which is something most people can plan for.3> For a melee fighter, they're really at a disadvantage in a protracted fight.  d8 HD, 3/4 BAB, the fists can't get an attack bonus or exotic weapon enchantments (and those exotic monk weapons don't quite make up for this), and their WIS bonus and innate armor together ALMOST make up for the loss of wearing armor.4> On the other hand, they get 4+INT skill points, a good class skill list, and great saves all around.  IME, this makes them ideal mage-killers, but they get soundly trounced by tanks.Bottom line, if you think Monks are overpowered, you should be playing one.  In my experience, they're just WAY too limited.  You just can't react well.  When confronted with an enemy immune to some sort of attack, most other classes can switch to a different attack without losing much.  If a Monk is trying to hit a monster he can't harm (maybe because of DR), his backup plan (if he has one) will be far less effective.There have been plenty of threads proposing fixes for the Monk class, usually involving increasing their flexibility by letting them pick abilities as they go.  Feel free to search around.</blockquote>

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