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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Esker" data-source="post: 7628005" data-attributes="member: 6966824">It's a very fair point. You expect a melee character to be able to do more damage, because they're taking more personal risk, and being at greater risk requires more investment in personal defense, perhaps at the expense of versatility. In the example, the AT had a spare feat, which I assumed would be spent on something like Tough, to boost their HP. But they already have a number of rogue abilities that help them avoid damage, like cunning action disengage and uncanny dodge (note that in the build I outlined, the rogue has their bonus action just sitting there). So they could instead spend that feat making themselves a better ranged combatant by taking crossbow expert. Alternatively, they could take something like Mobile, to reduce the number of situations where they're forced to engage from range: dash up to 80 feet and attack, and use any leftover movement to pull back again. Finally, as an arcane trickster, if they can't close to attack, maybe they can hide and cast a spell with disadvantage on the save (though that really is apples-to-oranges).But even if they do none of that, and just hang back and just take a single shot with a longbow, they're still doing ok when they can get advantage (hiding or familiar): 37 eDPR, with zero investment in any archery-specific features. The EK with their fighting style and two feats invested in archery (if we take away Hex, which I used wrong), does 45 eDPR with advantage on the first shot, which they are going to have a harder time getting than the rogue, since they can't hide as a bonus action (and also don't have stealth expertise).Add in crossbow expert for the rogue, that brings them up to 43 eDPR with familiar help; 35 without any source of advantage.Alternatively, the rogue could take sharpshooter, and use it to throw their shadow blade 60', ignoring cover (which would be a problem for them otherwise), for 42 eDPR when the familiar is up, and fall back on hiding with the longbow for 39 eDPR when the familiar is gone (maybe with a debuff thrown in, since they're not using concentration for anything in this case).It's interesting to note that if they can be hasted, the AT might choose to stay at range so they can more comfortably spend their reaction readying a second attack. In this case, as long as they have a way to get sneak attack, the rogue with a longbow is even with the hasted EK at 54 eDPR (when both have advantage on one attack), and even with no source of advantage whatsoever, the hasted rogue gets 47 eDPR this way, which is also even with the hasted EK with no advantage. This is more of a side note to your point though, since if the rogue is in range by necessity rather than by choice, they likely can't get sneak attack if they don't have advantage.Point is, a melee rogue is not bad at range even with no investment, and they have options to be better if they want, without sacrificing any melee offense. For big fights when they can afford to use Haste and spend their reaction readying a second sneak attack, they are dead even.By contrast, what happens if the EK has to enter melee? They can make very good use of shadow blade too, making three attacks with it to the rogue's one, but if not in dim light, they're only doing 34 eDPR to the rogue's 51. Even in dim light, they only get up to 44, which is less than the rogue gets without shadow blade (provided they get advantage some other way).What's the bottom line? I'm not trying to argue that the arcane trickster stands toe-to-toe with a fighter in doing damage. Under the right conditions they can, but the right conditions are narrower for them. Which is fine, because they bring vastly more to a party out of combat than a fighter. My point in writing this post in the first place was just to examine the notion that single classed rogues aren't good at doing damage at higher levels. Yes, they're dependent on getting that advantage. And yes, certain sources of advantage (namely, those that apply to all attacks in a turn) will enable the fighter to pull well ahead. But under a reasonably common circumstance of one attack per round with advantage, rogues really can be workhorse DPR members.</blockquote>

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