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Monoclass DPR Comparison: Eldritch Knight Archer vs Melee Arcane Trickster
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<blockquote data-quote="FrogReaver" data-source="post: 7628138" data-attributes="member: 6795602"><p>The numbers are 100% correct. I'll be happy to explain my methodology.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I stated the fighter was using precision attack. Precision attack effectively adds about +3 to chance to hit over the entire adventuring day. Thus the fighter gets +3 to attack listed in his effective attack column over his actual attack - thus why I labeled the column effective attack instead of attack.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I have no doubt you are right - but I was accounting for precision attack in that step.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>you left off the impact of precision attack</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Rolling a d20 does form a uniform distribution</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You've gotten the basic concept. Some days all your rolls will be 1 away from hitting. Some all will be 4 away from hitting etc. Etc. Overall though if you roll long enough you will expect to see very close to 1 in 20 misses by 1 and 1 in 20 misses by 2 etc.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You can attempt to turn it into damage that way - it loses some nuance that the basic +3 estimate was tuned with. Simulations helped a lot there. Basically using it optimally changes a bit between number of attacks and how many superiority dice you have and their size - but if you do use it more or less optimally (or close to that) then that's the expectation.</p><p></p><p>In the case of level 5, you would want to basically use it on misses of 1-4. So then on average when you use the dice you will turn ( 8/8+7/8+6/8+5/8 ) / 4 = 81.25% of misses into hits. (Of course you could run out a little early, so you also want to lower your near miss threshold a little if you use the dice to fast at the start). Anyways the miss by 4 or less strategy at level 5 equates to 9.75 misses turned into hits. Roughly 10 additional hits - Roughly 10 less misses. Do you know how many attacks a 5% chance of hit turns into a hit? 1 out of 20 = 3 out of 60. So for a standard adventuring day of 20 rounds (with 3 total attacks per round) then hitting with 9 additional attacks while missing with 9 fewer would be a +3 to hit. As you noted earlier, action surge essentially makes our day 23 rounds. We could factor that in and get it exactly precisely correct but it's much easier and plenty accurate to just remember the +3 attack for precision attack estimate.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>My calculations were with the PC's started with 16 dex. You are correct that having 18 dex would increase that slightly. Though if you want to get really nitpicky, do you know how much not having advantage on 25% of your turns will cause your DPR to drop? ALOT! Having advantage on most rounds but not all is a much more realistic expectation. I would use 75% of the time you will have it and 25% of the time you will not as my rule of thumb estimate but I wanted to show that even in the most idealized circumstances for the rouge the normal damage builds were far superior. I accomplished that goal.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't know that we can really correlate really high ac with really difficult opponents. I think you'll fight plenty of really tough enemies in each segment of 15-20 AC's. Keep in mind encounters can be hard because of a number of weaker enemies as well instead of 1 large enemy. </p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>In all fairness - you were acting earlier like it was closer than people thought....</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>I didn't actually try to calculate a realistic value for the rogue. The rogues realistic value is certainly lower than what I calculated. Missing out on advantage on rounds will do that.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p> Yes. Eldritch Blast + Hex basically sucks at damage too. The biggest factor for it IMO isn't the at-will numbers, it's the lack of any kind of ability to front load the damage.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Pick option d) run up to being 5ft away and shoot with hand crossbows. You will have advantage due to being 5ft away from a prone enemy and disadvantage for firing into melee. This will cancel out leaving you with a normal attack.</span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">More importantly though, your no longer arguing about the rogues damage but whether there's some edge cases where the rogue is better than the damage number shows. I certainly agree. An archer rogue (even without elven accuracy) is by no means a bad character. It's effective in combat, packs great out of combat skills and is tons of fun to play. It doesn't take high damage output to be effective in combat. Only moderate.</span></span></p><p></p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>Fighters have more feats though. They literally can take such feats and not be set back like other classes. But this sounds more like you are justifying playing a rogue when that doesn't need justified. Rogues don't suck. They are awesome. It's just rogues damage is just not impressive (outside having haste).</p><p></p><p>Pick option d) run up to being 5ft away and shoot with hand crossbows. You will have advantage due to being 5ft away from a prone enemy and disadvantage for firing into melee. This will cancel out leaving you with a normal attack. --- actually scrap that, you have crossbow expertise, you will have advantage</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="FrogReaver, post: 7628138, member: 6795602"] The numbers are 100% correct. I'll be happy to explain my methodology. I stated the fighter was using precision attack. Precision attack effectively adds about +3 to chance to hit over the entire adventuring day. Thus the fighter gets +3 to attack listed in his effective attack column over his actual attack - thus why I labeled the column effective attack instead of attack. I have no doubt you are right - but I was accounting for precision attack in that step. you left off the impact of precision attack Rolling a d20 does form a uniform distribution You've gotten the basic concept. Some days all your rolls will be 1 away from hitting. Some all will be 4 away from hitting etc. Etc. Overall though if you roll long enough you will expect to see very close to 1 in 20 misses by 1 and 1 in 20 misses by 2 etc. You can attempt to turn it into damage that way - it loses some nuance that the basic +3 estimate was tuned with. Simulations helped a lot there. Basically using it optimally changes a bit between number of attacks and how many superiority dice you have and their size - but if you do use it more or less optimally (or close to that) then that's the expectation. In the case of level 5, you would want to basically use it on misses of 1-4. So then on average when you use the dice you will turn ( 8/8+7/8+6/8+5/8 ) / 4 = 81.25% of misses into hits. (Of course you could run out a little early, so you also want to lower your near miss threshold a little if you use the dice to fast at the start). Anyways the miss by 4 or less strategy at level 5 equates to 9.75 misses turned into hits. Roughly 10 additional hits - Roughly 10 less misses. Do you know how many attacks a 5% chance of hit turns into a hit? 1 out of 20 = 3 out of 60. So for a standard adventuring day of 20 rounds (with 3 total attacks per round) then hitting with 9 additional attacks while missing with 9 fewer would be a +3 to hit. As you noted earlier, action surge essentially makes our day 23 rounds. We could factor that in and get it exactly precisely correct but it's much easier and plenty accurate to just remember the +3 attack for precision attack estimate. My calculations were with the PC's started with 16 dex. You are correct that having 18 dex would increase that slightly. Though if you want to get really nitpicky, do you know how much not having advantage on 25% of your turns will cause your DPR to drop? ALOT! Having advantage on most rounds but not all is a much more realistic expectation. I would use 75% of the time you will have it and 25% of the time you will not as my rule of thumb estimate but I wanted to show that even in the most idealized circumstances for the rouge the normal damage builds were far superior. I accomplished that goal. I don't know that we can really correlate really high ac with really difficult opponents. I think you'll fight plenty of really tough enemies in each segment of 15-20 AC's. Keep in mind encounters can be hard because of a number of weaker enemies as well instead of 1 large enemy. In all fairness - you were acting earlier like it was closer than people thought.... I didn't actually try to calculate a realistic value for the rogue. The rogues realistic value is certainly lower than what I calculated. Missing out on advantage on rounds will do that. Yes. Eldritch Blast + Hex basically sucks at damage too. The biggest factor for it IMO isn't the at-will numbers, it's the lack of any kind of ability to front load the damage. [LEFT][COLOR=#222222][FONT=Verdana]Pick option d) run up to being 5ft away and shoot with hand crossbows. You will have advantage due to being 5ft away from a prone enemy and disadvantage for firing into melee. This will cancel out leaving you with a normal attack. More importantly though, your no longer arguing about the rogues damage but whether there's some edge cases where the rogue is better than the damage number shows. I certainly agree. An archer rogue (even without elven accuracy) is by no means a bad character. It's effective in combat, packs great out of combat skills and is tons of fun to play. It doesn't take high damage output to be effective in combat. Only moderate.[/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT] Fighters have more feats though. They literally can take such feats and not be set back like other classes. But this sounds more like you are justifying playing a rogue when that doesn't need justified. Rogues don't suck. They are awesome. It's just rogues damage is just not impressive (outside having haste). Pick option d) run up to being 5ft away and shoot with hand crossbows. You will have advantage due to being 5ft away from a prone enemy and disadvantage for firing into melee. This will cancel out leaving you with a normal attack. --- actually scrap that, you have crossbow expertise, you will have advantage [/QUOTE]
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Monoclass DPR Comparison: Eldritch Knight Archer vs Melee Arcane Trickster
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