Monster Advancment Rules

[Fieari]

Just wondering...

As far as I can tell, standard monster advancement involves simply giving monsters more hit dice as described in their entry. The SRD makes this fairly clear. On the -other- hand, I've seen, and greatly enjoyed, the threads here on enworld which advance monsters much more interestingly. Were said threads following any written rules, or even guidelines? I mean, not only were more hit dice given, but attacks were beefed, resistances upped, sometimes extra abilites given...

I ask now because I specifically have a need for a Shadow which has a significantly higher challenge rating than 3... but just giving more HD doesn't seem like it'd do much, or be that interesting either for that matter. And just arbitrarily giving it a boatload of extra AC, initiative, speed, BAB, etc etc etc doesn't seem as interesting as the things that were done to the monsters I've seen around here.

 

[elbandit]

Hmmmm

Monster Manual 3.5 seems to have the advancement rules layed out better. Increasing the HD will also increase the number of feats, BAB, skills and saves. It can also increase the size.

Also if you add a template onto a creature that will greatly change how it plays. Nothing worse than taking a standard trynosaur and adding the half dragon template to it followed by the multi-headed template. So nice of WalMart to provide the miniature for it as well

 

[Yeoman]

I ask now because I specifically have a need for a Shadow which has a significantly higher challenge rating than 3... but just giving more HD doesn't seem like it'd do much, or be that interesting either for that matter. And just arbitrarily giving it a boatload of extra AC, initiative, speed, BAB, etc etc etc doesn't seem as interesting as the things that were done to the monsters I've seen around here.

As elbandit mentioned you could use templates to add some spice to monsters, but you can also add class levels to them. This makes for more interesting encounters with many types of creatures, and can make even goblins and kobolds into higher level adversaries.

 

[the Jester]

I love love love advancing monsters.

What CR are you looking for in your shadow? What kind of backstory do you already have worked up?

I'll take the liberty of working something a lil unusual up here at, say, CR 8, using a standard shadow as the base:


LIVING SHADOW
Advanced living shadow
Medium Undead (Incorporeal, Living Undead)
Hit Dice: 5d12+5 (49 hp)
Initiative: +6
Speed: Fly 40' (good)
Armor Class: 15 (+4 dex, +1 deflection), touch 15, flat-footed 11
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/-
Attack: Incorporeal touch +6 melee (1d6 strength plus 2d6 energy sear)
Full Attack: Incorporeal touch +6 melee (1d6 strength plus 2d6 energy sear)
Space/Reach: 5'/5'
Special Attacks: Channel, create spawn, energy sear, strength damage
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60', incorporeal, internal conflict, lving undead qualities, +4 turn resistance
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +5, Will +5
Abilities: Str -, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 16
Skills: Hide +12*, Listen +8, Search +4, Spot +8
Feats: Alertness, Dodge, Great Fortitude (B), Improved Initiative (B)
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary plus 2-5 normal shadows
Challenge Rating: 8
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: 6-9 HD (medium)
Level Adjustment: -

Insert backstory and description here.

Combat
A living shadow is a dangerous opponent, as its touch does more than mere strength damage.

Channel (Su): As a standard action, a living undead may channel positive or negative energy, just as a cleric may turn or rebuke undead. It uses its Hit Dice as its turning level.

Energy Sear (Su): The living undead’s touch deals positive energy damage and negative energy damage rolled together into a terrifically conflicted energy that damages both the living and undead. The damage is 2d6. This damage also applies to any creature that touches it.

Strength Damage (Su): The touch of a shadow deals 1d6 points of str damage to a living foe. A creature reduced to a str of 0 dies. This is a negative energy effect.

Create Spawn (Su): Any humanoid reduced to a str 0 by a shadow becomes a shadow under the control of its killer within 1d4 rounds.

Internal Conflict (Su): Positive and negative energy war for dominance in the living undead. Whenever an attempt is made to turn or rebuke it, whether successful or not, there is a backlash that deals 5d4 points of damage per Hit Die of the living undead to the creature making the turn attempt (Fort save DC 15 for half damage). This damage is positive energy to a creature channeling negative energy or vice-versa.

Living Undead Qualities: A living undead creature is immune to mind-affecting effects, poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, disease and necromantic effects. It is not subject to critical hits, ability damage to physical attributes, ability drain or energy drain. It has darkvision (60’). Unlike other undead, a living undead is subject to death effects, subdual damage and death from massive damage, as well as effects requiring a Fortitude save (that it is not otherwise immune to).

Regeneration (Su): A living undead regenerates 5 hp per round. Fire does real damage to living undead.

Turn Resistance (Su): Living undead have +4 turn resistance.


Skills: A living shadow has a +2 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks and a +4 racial bonus on Search checks. It gains a +4 racial bonus to Hide checks in areas of shadowy illumination, but in brightly lit areas it suffers a -4 penalty on Hide checks.


If you sort threads in the homebrews forum by thread starter and look at stuff I've done you can find the living undead template.


edit: oops, forgot saves! He'll need those.

 

[Fieari]

Well, I already know where I want to GO with it, it's the rules of getting there that I'm interested.

The concept was something I came up with years ago for a story I was writing at the time. It's of the "Dischordant Voices"... and insane incorporeal monster that is the servant of an evil god, that doesn't damage your flesh, but rather damages your soul. It consists of numerous "minds" each with a shadowy body, and whenever it kills someone, that person is added to the collective.

And then I read the entry on Shadows. Wow... that's... um... very similar. Identical almost. The biggest differences are that the Voices of my story were restricted... only so many bodies could manifest at a time, and they were all forced to stay together within a certain radius... each member couldn't just go off wandering alone. And they got around their body-forming-at-a-time limitation through the use of illusions... 6 forms attack the hero, one left, one right, one forewards, one behind, one above, one below, but only four are real. Which do you dodge?

But really, the most fun was that all of the voices argued incessantly with each other.

To simulate the grouping bit, I think giving the Voice's "Leader" control monster or domination or control undead powers would be necessary. Also maybe a few levels of wizard to get some illusion powers going.

As for CR... I want this to be a recurring monster the PCs encounter, so it should be above their ability to -kill-, though they'll need to be able to survive, run away, or fend it off from its varius targets. The PCs'll be between lvl8-10 by the time they get to the part of the campaign I'm planning for here...

Edit: Oooh, Living Undead... that looks... oooh, quite cool. Still needs a little more power, as CR8 isn't quite enough at this point, and as I mentioned, needs to be able to control other shadows. As for backstory...

In the distant past, on another plane, we have the story of the evil wizard who wants to become a god. All kinds of heroic actions are taken to stop him of course, but in the end, he gained the power he wanted, and chose to become a god of chaos. He started destroying things, big huge war ensued, planets, planes destroyed in the process. But in the end, some other deities go and seal him off into a single dimension, one he himself ruined by destroying all laws... pure chaos without order. And there he's stuck, in a hell of his own creation.

And pure chaos, when you have nothing to compare it to, is boring. Esspecially when, by defnition, you yourself have SOME order, if only that much to keep a form for yourself.

At any rate, he's looking for a way out of this prison. Over an indeterminate period of time, in fact, time has no meaning here, he forced a tiny tiny crack open into another plane. He can't fit through, but he can work some small influence.

Now, the seal on his prison is in the form of the life force of certain individuals, or rather, certain mortal bloodlines. The end of these lines, the complete slaughter of the keyholders, will open the prison once more. So using the little influence he has, he creates assasin monsters, and beguiles skilled mortals to find these people in exhange for considerable power, etc etc etc.

The Dischordant Voices are one of three assasins this god personally made in order to break him out of the prison.

 

[FireLance]

Sounds to me like you need not one undead creature, but four. May I suggest a group consisting of a Greater Shadow, a Dread Wraith, a Spectre and an advanced 12HD Allip?

I need to go back and check my Complete Warrior book - I think there's a spell that creates illusionary flankers which might create the multiple attackers effect.

 

[Garnfellow]

Just wondering...

As far as I can tell, standard monster advancement involves simply giving monsters more hit dice as described in their entry. The SRD makes this fairly clear. On the -other- hand, I've seen, and greatly enjoyed, the threads here on enworld which advance monsters much more interestingly. Were said threads following any written rules, or even guidelines? I mean, not only were more hit dice given, but attacks were beefed, resistances upped, sometimes extra abilites given...

I know that several of us here use Fantasy Flight Games' Monster's Handbook (written by Mike Mearls) to add customized abilities. The Handbook provides a nice set of guidelines on how to trick out monsters. Although it's a 3.0 book, you could still get plenty of use out of it in a 3.5 game.

 

[dcollins]

As far as I can tell, standard monster advancement involves simply giving monsters more hit dice as described in their entry. The SRD makes this fairly clear. On the -other- hand, I've seen, and greatly enjoyed, the threads here on enworld which advance monsters much more interestingly. Were said threads following any written rules, or even guidelines? I mean, not only were more hit dice given, but attacks were beefed, resistances upped, sometimes extra abilites given...

I don't think anyone has outright said it yet here, so note:

The core rules have formulas by which, when a monster advances in Hit Dice, it also gets a proscribed increase in attack, bonus, saving throws, skill points, feats, and possibly abilities (if the size changes). This is under "Creature Advancement by Type" in both 3.0 and 3.5 Monster Manual and SRDs.

 

[the Jester]

Okay, let me take my shadow to the 'next level.' This time, instead of an advanced 5 HD shadow, I started with a greater shadow (9 HD, MM pg. 221) and slapped the living undead template on it. Then, frankly, I cheated, adding in the monster of legend template. Now, by the RAW you can't do this, but rule 0, baby- the best monsters sometimes need a lil extra finesse to be as cool as they are. And if you want this guy to last as a shadow, he needs something special. The best part of MoL is +10 to his con; that lets him have some durability (not enough hp otherwise- watch out for a sorc with magic missile!)

From there I simply added rogue levels until I got CR 18- it seems like that's about what you're after at this point, right?

(An alternative to 7 rogue levels might be to tack on 12 sorcerer levels, but I like adding in the sneak attack to this guy's damage! Should be easy to do, too- how hard can it be for this guy to come atcha unexpected?)


HHHAAAAUTH
Living Greater Shadow of Legend Rogue 7
Medium Undead (Incorporeal, Living Undead)
Hit Dice: 9d12 + 7d6 + 112 (198 hp)
Initiative: +9
Speed: Fly 40' (good)
Armor Class: 23 (+7 dex, +5 deflection, +1 dodge), touch 23, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +9/-
Attack: Incorporeal touch +18 melee (1d8 strength plus 3d6 energy sear)
Full Attack: Incorporeal touch +18/18 melee (1d8 strength plus 3d6 energy sear)
Space/Reach: 5'/5'
Special Attacks: Breath weapon, channel, create spawn, energy sear, sneak attack +4d6, strength damage
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60', evasion, haste, immunity to acid and electricity, incorporeal, internal conflict, living undead qualities, trapfinding, trap sense +2, turn resistance +4, uncanny dodge
Saves: Fort +17, Ref +18, Will +15
Abilities: Str -, Dex 26, Con 24, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 21
Skills: Bluff +15, Diplomacy +7, Disguise +5 (+7 acting in character), Hide +24*, Intimidate +18, Listen +16, Search +13, Sleight of Hand +10, Spot +16
Feats: Alertness, Dodge, Great Fortitude (B), Improved Initiative (B), Iron Will, Mobility, Multiattack (B), Spring Attack, Weapon Focus (incorporeal touch)
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary plus 2-5 normal shadows
Challenge Rating: 18
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: -
Level Adjustment: -

Insert backstory and description here.

Combat
A living shadow is a dangerous opponent, as its touch does more than mere strength damage.

Breath Weapon (Su): Every 1d4 rounds, Hhhaaaauth can breathe out a 15' cone of cold that deals 3d6 hp of damage to all caught within (Ref DC 21 half).

Channel (Su): As a standard action, a living undead may channel positive or negative energy, just as a cleric may turn or rebuke undead. It uses its Hit Dice as its turning level. Hhhaaaauth uses this ability to maintain control of the collective shadows that it exemplifies.

Energy Sear (Su): The living undead’s touch deals positive energy damage and negative energy damage rolled together into a terrifically conflicted energy that damages both the living and undead. The damage is 3d6. This damage also applies to any creature that touches it.

Strength Damage (Su): The touch of a greater shadow deals 1d8 points of str damage to a living foe. A creature reduced to a str of 0 dies. This is a negative energy effect.

Create Spawn (Su): Any humanoid reduced to a str 0 by a shadow becomes a shadow under the control of its killer within 1d4 rounds.

Haste (Su): Hhhaaaauth is supernaturally quick and is treated as if always under the influence of a haste spell (+1 bonus on attack rolls, +1 dodge bonus to AC and Reflex saves, +30' enhancement bonus to speed, take an extra attack when full attacking).

Internal Conflict (Su): Positive and negative energy war for dominance in the living undead. Whenever an attempt is made to turn or rebuke it, whether successful or not, there is a backlash that deals 9d4 points of damage per Hit Die of the living undead to the creature making the turn attempt (Fort save DC 19 for half damage). This damage is positive energy to a creature channeling negative energy or vice-versa.

Living Undead Qualities: A living undead creature is immune to mind-affecting effects, poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, disease and necromantic effects. It is not subject to critical hits, ability damage to physical attributes, ability drain or energy drain. It has darkvision (60’). Unlike other undead, a living undead is subject to death effects, subdual damage and death from massive damage, as well as effects requiring a Fortitude save (that it is not otherwise immune to).

Regeneration (Su): A living undead regenerates 5 hp per round. Fire does real damage to living undead.

Turn Resistance (Su): Living undead have +4 turn resistance.


Skills: A living shadow has a +2 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks and a +4 racial bonus on Search checks. It gains a +4 racial bonus to Hide checks in areas of shadowy illumination, but in brightly lit areas it suffers a -4 penalty on Hide checks.


Is this close to what you're after?