Monster Damage: What am I missing?

[Mercurius]

I just got Draconomicon: Metallic Dragons in the mail today and, while browsing through the "Hall of Fame," I was once more struck by how little damage monsters dole out. Take Bahamut, for example, who as a Level 36 Solo might be the highest level creature published so far. His attack damages are:

Bite: 3d12+10, plus two healing surges
Claw: 2d12+10
Disintegration Breath: 4d12+10, ongoing 15.
Etc.

Obviously those are no small potatoes, but for the most powerful dragon in the D&D canon? It just seems anticlimactic to say "The great platinum beast inhales deeply and lets out a blast of pure hellish fury, doing 36 HP of damage (which I believe is the average of 4d12+10). To an epic level character with HP in the 150-200 range that is barely a scratch.

Or take the Tarrasque, whose most powerful attacks (Rending Bite and Tail Slap) do 3d12+16, or whose standard Bite only does d12+16! "The mighty 50-ft tall abomination tears into your flesh and does 22 HP of damage". Oooh, I'm scared.

The campaign I've been running--and am now playing (and co-DMing)--has only made it up to 5th level, but I found this to be the case with many of the monsters they've been facing. It just isn't that scary to take 12 HP of damage when you have 50 from the final foe.

What am I missing?

 

[Obryn]

It's a combination of a few things...

(1) The PCs' hit points are going to be sizably lower than high-level high-con 3e characters' hit points.

(2) These creatures all have oodles of HPs, so they don't need to do lethal damage in a single round.

(3) Most of the above have ways to attack quite a few times every turn.


Now, looking at Bahamut, I'm seeing two things...
(1) Losing two healing surges after a bite is incredibly strong over a long fight. That has the potential to cut a fight very short. When you have no surges, your leaders can't do anything to keep you up.
(2) Ongoing 15 varies from useless to deadly.

I would also assume they have an ability to use several attacks in a single round, right?

4e isn't about huge peak damage from monsters. It's - as Mearls said - all about the slow burn. 4e monsters don't kill you in one swipe - they kill you surely and steadily over the course of a few rounds.

-O

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

They'll have APs, multi-attack powers, minor action attacks, reaction powers, on-bloodied, etc. Bahamut may not drop quite the same damage as an optimized high Epic striker, but he'll drop plenty of damage. Encounters, especially high level ones, can't really be simply considered in terms of powers either. It would be pretty lame for DM to simply toss Bahamut into a room with 5 PCs and have them go at it. The real challenge will be the fact that you're facing a supremely powerful being that has had aeons of time to prepare for any attack, is super intelligent, and has almost limitless resources. Whatever that encounter is, the damage from the platinum dude's claws are going to be the least thing the PCs should be thinking about.

But ultimately monsters exist to be defeated. If monsters did massive damage in every hit the game would simply be too swingy, which was always a problem with older editions of D&D where 1 or 2 die rolls going against someone was the end of the day for them.

Think of 4e combat rounds as smaller increments of time than in older editions. The damage output isn't so much different as the level of granularity in which it is dished out is smaller. This gives players more decision points. Instead of just suddenly being dead, you're hurt and you get to try to do something about it.

In any case I have NOT found monster damage output up through all of heroic and into paragon to be lacking. Characters regularly get hit hard and they can go down quite fast.

 

[Obryn]

Going into further detail with the tarrasque, since I don't have Bahamut handy...

He's an older MM1 high-level solo, and a brute to boot, and so could be a little ... boring. Most MM1 solos did too little damage and had too few actions. But let's take a quick look...

First off, his aura effectively insulates him from flying snipers. Which is good - it takes away a pretty huge tactic.

Second, he has a boatload of HPs. Even if your PCs are doing a ton, unless they're extremely optimized, it will be a long time before he drops. What's more, he has Resist 10 All, which is huge. He's a creature who will last a very, very long time. He might not do much to a character all at once, but he will last long enough to do a ton over time. (Especially once bloodied...)

Third, his attacks ignore all resistances, which again could be very good. If he hits you, you're going to know it.

His damage is quite low, but this is somewhat counteracted by the ongoing 15 rider. For most circumstances, he's really doing 1d12+31 damage.

Tarrasque's Fury should, IMO, recharge more often. But it's a good way to get some multi-target effects in with some riders.

Trample is kind of questionable, but again it's a good way to bash into things. A good Fighter would make it less useful. Still, again, it's a way to damage multiple foes.

Finally, Frenzy... This is the best part, IMO. Sure, he can only use it while bloodied, but I think any group which has gotten complacent will suddenly find they're hurting badly.

Nevertheless, I think Mr. Tarrasque needs some boosts. He definitely seems on the weak side for a level 30 solo. Personally, I'd give him multiple attacks every round, and some kind of way to save out of daze or immobilize effects.

-O

 

[Belphanior]

Re: Bahamut

He's much more deadly than you're making him out to be.

* The aftereffect of the ongoing 15 from his disintegration breath is ongoing 10.
* He can damage and grab anybody who moves adjacent to him, and then his bite automatically hits any time they fail an escape attempt.
* He can effortlessly stun large amounts of foes, several times per battle.

But the bottom line is really as Obryn said: it's about the slow burn. Compare it to a game of chess; a master against a novice will inevitably win, but not with the very first move.

 

[Obryn]

Re: Bahamut

He's much more deadly than you're making him out to be.

* The aftereffect of the ongoing 15 from his disintegration breath is ongoing 10.

!

This is biiig. Even if you get an early save, ala Warden, you're still stuck with ongoing damage. If you assume failure on at least one of the saves, you're probably looking at 35-40 extra damage, easy.

* He can damage and grab anybody who moves adjacent to him, and then his bite automatically hits any time they fail an escape attempt.

!!

* He can effortlessly stun large amounts of foes, several times per battle.

!!!

Mass-stun is probably one of the nastiest thing a monster can do...

-O

 

[CapnZapp]

What am I missing?

Nothing. 4E was explicitly designed to avoid player characters dying from just one or a few attacks.

That said, a Solo as designed in the game is merely intended to replace 5 regular critters of the same level.

A party can be expected to mow through half a dozen such encounters a day without the death risk becoming unmanageable.

The problem is that when a party faces a mighty Dragon, you almost per definition want something more than this out of the encounter.

You want a "super solo" encounter. Try doubling the number of attacks as well as any ongoing damage any time you have a super solo - an encounter with a truly solo creature, and an encounter which isn't merely one bead in a long string, but something campaign changing.

Something a player character might die for.


I don't have Bahamut's stats, but if you change into this, I'm sure the mocking comments from your level 30 player characters will die out pretty fast.

Bite: 6d12+20, plus two healing surges
Claw: two attacks each doing 2d12+10
Disintegration Breath: 6d12+20, ongoing 30.

 

[ValhallaGH]

You want a "super solo" encounter. Try doubling the number of attacks as well as any ongoing damage any time you have a super solo - an encounter with a truly solo creature, and an encounter which isn't merely one bead in a long string, but something campaign changing.
[sic]
Bite: 6d12+20, plus two healing surges

Why not make it "plus four healing surges." I mean, you're trying to slaughter the party in 5 round or less already, why pussyfoot around? Take about 25% hp per bite, and take about 20-50% recovery ability at the same time. And once those surges are gone, they'll take another 25% (or more) hp damage per bite. That will end their adventuring day in a real hurry.

Edit: I have no idea how serious I am. I may be totally earnest or totally facetious. I literally do not know.

 

[fuzzlewump]

Edit: I have no idea how serious I am. I may be totally earnest or totally facetious. I literally do not know.

Schrodinger's earnestness flaring up again?

 

[ShaggySpellsword]

I just minimized a level 30 character for HP (136 HP) and maximized a level 30 character for hp (285).

The breath weapon, on average, with the ongoing 15/10 accounted for once each, (assuming a character hit by it does not get an extra saving throw or two or an auto condition-remove but makes their first two saves) will take away between 21% and 45% of their hit points. Now with extra saves granted, save failures, condition removal, etc., there are lots of variables here, but this one area-effect power is pretty darn potent.

Combine this with the ability to take multiple attacks a round, conditions inflicted, and action point expenditure, not to mention any previous fights that day, is pretty potent.

Of course, it is counter-balanced by a teams worth of class abilities, powers, and gear.

*minimized HP assume no +HP Feats or Gear, 8 Con at level 1, and a Wizard.
*maximized HP assume a 20 Con at level 1, Toughness, Brooch of Vitality, every increase placed in Con, Demigod Con bonus, and Warden. Did I miss something?