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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 5411467" data-attributes="member: 82106">I wasn't disagreeing at all that MM3 monsters are better. Was just pointing out that you picked an extreme example to illustrate it. If someone wants to use certain MM1 monsters at heroic tier without making any changes they will often not really notice much difference. Surely that isn't true of ALL MM1 monsters. The wraith etc were just monsters that turned out poorly for various reasons. It wasn't especially related to damage output in most of those cases though.And in all fairness, MM1 has some fine paragon monsters, like actually the paragon dragons were mostly pretty nice. I've used some of them and had fun battles. I wouldn't bother to use them now with better designs out there, and always made a few tweaks anyway for my own purposes, but they weren't unusable or totally outclassed. They were tricky to use well though.I didn't say it was THE most extreme example, just that it was AN extreme example, and one of the most extreme ones you can easily make. Yes, the Balor is also a good extreme example and I had it in mind when I was reading your post in fact. I'm actually not sure I would consider it more extreme. The old Balor was poor even for an MM1 epic monster in the damage department. Never used one (except in a fun gauntlet encounter where it got a single swing at a 9th level PC, lol did that freak the player out, it was fun).Eh, a little extreme. Remember, I've read all of those same threads you have. EPIC MM1 monsters are close to useless as-is. High paragon ones are mostly not going to be much use as-is either if you want fun encounters, though some of them can be QUITE threatening in the right situation. Up to 15th level the old monsters held up OK. The new ones in that half of the game are better is all. It also vastly matters what type of group you were running. I've run a couple groups through that really didn't care much about optimizing and aren't tactically all that adept most of the time. They found most MM1 monsters to be OK challenges, just mostly a bit boring. The new monster numbers definitely work better, no argument there.</blockquote>

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