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Message: <blockquote data-quote="CapnZapp" data-source="post: 6905364" data-attributes="member: 12731">Re-reading the thread from here in fall 2016.I gotta say, the numbers argument against the "5E doesn't feel epic" complaint - "numbers are not important" "numbers should be invisible" etc is one huge strawman, and you are several posters that are guilty of this. Of course a +2 or a +5 or a +87200 isn't significant in itself. That's not at all what the complainers are talking about. They are (quite obviously) talking about the relative difference between a greenhorn and a veteran hero. Those +2s and +5s do take on a meaning when compared against each other. A +20 to hit might mean nothing, but if compared to a commoner's +1, it is (given the span of a single d20) truly epic, while a +10 to hit would feel much less so.No "numbers should be invisible" argument can change this. ---And oh, one more thing. From the comfort of 2016 and actual, real, playtest, I can emphatically state for a fact that upper-range monsters are decidedly weak/soft in 5th edition and its official adventure modules. Both in absolute terms and compared to 3E/4E. It is definitely an edition we can call beginner friendly, because I have yet to come across an official module that truly test the player skill of veteran players at high levels.(At low levels it is trivial to TPK the party, and so there there is no problem. In fact, 5E should be lauded for having the guts to pitch low-level heroes against near-insurmountable odds)Since that might actually sound okay:ish, let me rephrase:If you DM for competent players (players who pay attention, build with effectiveness in mind, and players who cooperate well in their team) and you thought the optional rules for multiclassing and feats and magic items were there to be used, prepare to redo almost every published high-level encounter or resign yourself to watching them cut through them like a hot knife through butter.There are too many adventure writers that seemingly lack a full and complete insight of what a high-level party can do. There were too many MM high-level monsters written naively, without even a cursory token attempt at countering even the most trivial kiting tactics any competitive player group can and will deploy.The bar is set so low that only middling players with no magic, no feats and no multiclassing could have trouble with them.That 5E doesn't seem to be meant for us who like crunch is actually a big disappointment. You might have thought that feats and mc and magic items made the game more fun, but the primary effect is that everything becomes too easy. In this, 5E is a huge let down.The game really is meant for characters w/o magic items. They're not kidding.</blockquote>

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