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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Raven Crowking" data-source="post: 5054188" data-attributes="member: 18280">The pizza you keep in your fridge might be guarded from me.The money kept in your pockets is not hidden (EDIT:  At least in the sense that someone who mugs you will automatically check your pockets); that kept in your refrigerator, or even on the jar you keep on the dresser, (EDIT:  or in your sock, where a mugger is less likely to check) is.  Not hidden from you, but not necessarily obvious to anyone else who enters your bedroom.  The pizza in your fridge is not hidden.Money kept in a bank vault is guarded, and that is true even if you have bypassed those guards and are now standing inside the vault.The aforementioned treasure in Caldwell Castle is not guarded -- you can get to it without any encounter at all -- but is hidden (albeit poorly, and, within the context of the module, probably placed for the express purpose of teaching the players to search).  The treasure in the maze in Pharoah is guarded by the nature of the maze and the denizens...it is part of an encounter design where picking up the treasure is, in and of itself, a trap.There is a ton of equipment in the Moathouse in T1, which is not guarded (in that no creature pays any special attention to it), but is hidden in rooms concealed by a mass of old furniture, etc.  In the same dungeon, the bandits have treasure that is not hidden (it is carried on them) and a much larger treasure that is well hidden (it takes 1/2 hour digging to uncover it, if you know where to look.....and doing the same elsewhere in the complex is likely to get you killed due to collapsing ruins).Also, keep in mind where this thread started -- the assertation that, if one defeats Monster X, one has automatically earned treasure Y, and whether or not this was true of pre-WotC D&D or not.  In Bullgrit's .sig, you will find a link to a thread where it was argued that all the treasure in a module (specifically including T1) would be found and recovered by the average PC party.  It was held that this was the expectation of the designers, despite direct quotation to the contrary (see my .sig).  When the levelling times of the designers was examined, and found contrary to the expectations of Bullgrit and others, there was a marked lack of willingness to take the statements of Monte Cook and Gary Gygax at face value.Can you just find Treasure Y by defeating Monster X?  Obviously.Is it possible to just find Treasure Y without it being hidden, without there being any guardians, any traps, or any puzzles to contend with in finding it?  Well, yes, you can....if your GM sets things up that way.  But that is not consistent with Gygaxian D&D in general.  What ought to be patently and obviously untrue by this point is that "There are many examples in published AD&D1 modules where treasure is found unguarded, untrapped, and unhidden in a dungeon."RC</blockquote>

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