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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AgelessOne" data-source="post: 4297668" data-attributes="member: 49933">Correct, I wasn't looking for justification on where they fit within my game(thats what I am trying to figure out) I am trying to determine why you were thinking such a simple creature in relative terms would be paragon level. I have read all the descriptions of what type of  creatures or challenges PCs should face fairly closely. Additionally I appreciate any discussion on this so don't take my questions or positioning in the wrong wayMy perspective was more from a long term campaign - I agree a full blown Tyranid invasion is an epic event. However they only happen after long, long periods of infiltration, cult activity, small skirmishes etc which slowly builds to an epic planet ending or system ending event. I can see your reasoning, I just disagree with the placement thats all.I cant see making a creature who is essentially cannon fodder more powerful from a stats, bonus AC and everything point of view just because the PCs have reached some tier. For comparative purposes, if a single imperial guardsman or two (in 40k) is an even match for a Hormaguant, are we saying that we need to make all guardsmen or their D&D equivalent "Town Militia" level 10 minions as well? I am not even saying the PCs would SEE an actual Hormagaunt until 10th level but when they do the creatures role and place on food chain do not warrant a 10th level profile. PCs may fight some Hormagaunts at 10th level but that is just to GET TO the more advanced and critical enemies in the form of  Warriors, Ravagers, Genestealers etc.If I encounter a rabid dog...does it have to be stated out as a 10th level dog because I am 10th level? Or is it still just a rabid dog? I don't want to the dog to represent any REAL threat to the PCs so hes a 1st level mutt. He still poses a threat to someone normal and a pack of them may put some hurt on a PC if properly motivated. No...a swift kick and the mutt is no longer a threat.Stay with me here, you told me to read the descriptions...Heroic LevelThe party, newbs to the world discover weird events in their area...a Cult pops up. Maybe they learn about Hybrids..a small village in an old mining community disappears, more importantly people are acting differently..The PCs investigate and save the day perhaps killing a Patriarch or a Magus in the process and fighting a horrific genestealer brood. They save the day in small but important ways learning more about the threat these creatures represent to the world.Paragon LevelThe party begins to realize its more than just outside the neighborhood..the entire kingdom, perhaps even other neighboring countries or city states are affected. Perhaps the King is under the sway of these" Stealers of Genes" The PCs have now fought the infiltrators, the collaborators and have thwarted the threat through battle and wit again and again. Some players realizing that the level of infiltration necessitates engagement in the political arena. In jump the role players and the ladder climbers.I think at this point you are saying if I introduce something like a Hormagaunt or Termagaunt it should be as a level 10+ creature. Still a minion but level 10 at least. What I am saying is why make it 10th level at all? A 10 level warrior or warlock should gut stomp a single Hormagaunt or 10. A 1st level warrior is in a fight for his life.If there was such a big battle for our Paragons of Virtue to fight, the typical Tyranid tactic would be to overrun the village/city..swarms without number appear on the horizon. The town militia and Kings men have lined up to meet them with the PCs bolstering the line. The swarm comes...and 1000 10th level minions? Well thats the end of that. PCs cant be everywhere at once, No one can shoot or survive melee because 10th level minions are AC 24+ and have +15 or greater to attack.OrIf there was a big battle for our Paragons of Virtue to fight, the typical Tyranid tactic would be to overrun the village/city..swarms without number appear on the horizon. The town militia and Kings men have lined up to meet them with the PCs bolstering the line. The swarm comes...1000 1st level minions. The defenders line erupts with ranged weapons, blasts and bursts from spellcasters. Huge holes are blasted in the line of teeth and claws. A second volley erupts just before the line of Hormagaunts hit the defenders..Blood sprays, limbs go flying, good men go down and the line begins to break. THEN the paragon warrior wades in....smashing the enemies aside, wreaking havoc and piling up the dead Tyranids around him. A wave of healing hits the ranks from the Cleric increasing the militias ability to fight. The Warlock burns and shifts and summons. The Wizard blasts away. The line is held. A cheer goes up-- the day is saved!But wait - Another wave appears on the Horizon, smaller than the first but littered with BIGGER creatures..the men brace for the attack. They know whats coming. The PCs ready their weapons and spells. The ranger whispers to the catapult the exact location he measured the night before. Men grit there teeth. Then the Lictor jumps on the Warlock....... and the Genestealers erupt from the sewers.Its ONEpic LevelThe world ends because the planet is devoured by a Hive Fleet or the uber Epic PCs stop it. Hopefully it doesn't ever get to level 23 elite brutes named "old one eye" walking through the town.1st Level Tyranids fit quite nicely....</blockquote>

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