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<blockquote data-quote="Fanaelialae" data-source="post: 6595659" data-attributes="member: 53980"><p>So you're saying that if your AC is good enough that you're only hit 70% of the time, then dropping that hit rate to 45% isn't advantageous? That doesn't track. </p><p></p><p>Sure, if you've boosted your AC into the mid 20s and you're attacked by goblins with a +4 to hit, Shield is pointless. Against an Ancient Dragon with a +15 to hit (or other powerful enemy) there is very much a point to it.</p><p></p><p>No need to call foul on Action Surge. Ignore it if you like. The Fighter 20 still has 4 attacks with a 45% chance to hit versus the Fighter 19/Wizard 1's 3 attacks with a 70% chance to hit. Still clearly advantageous. The F20 may very well still win the fight, but Shield gives the F/W a solid fighting chance. That's all I was trying to show. Remember, I agreed that the F20 is superior in terms of raw power. I'm merely showing how the F/W is 20th level in capability. Breadth vs depth.</p><p></p><p>My turn to call foul. If the F20 can knock the F/W prone, then the F/W can knock the F20 prone. Advantage gives the F/W a 91% chance to hit, whereas it only give the F20 a 69.75% chance to hit.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So? The F/W is only using Expeditious Retreat to engage with the enemy so that he doesn't lose his first round of attacks. He's not likely to lose concentration when he casts it, since it's on his turn. If he maintains concentration, great, that's icing on the cake. If not, it's already done its job.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Sure, in some cases. And in some cases, like an anti-magic zone, having spells might not help at all. But there's a lot more to those utility spells than a simple pass/fail on being able to participate.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>As I said, if you use Disguise Self and succeed, then the target doesn't know that you know. If you bribe or intimidate him, then he knows that you know. Knowledge is power, therefore it's reasonable that it's advantageous that he not know that you know.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I've shown how a number of spells are advantageous. And there are many more I could demonstrate the advantage of having access to including: Alarm, Charm Person, Detect Magic, Find Familiar, Fog Cloud, Grease, Identify, Illusory Script, Jump, Longstrider, Protection from Good and Evil, Silent Image, Tenser's Floating Disk, and Unseen Servant. That doesn't include the wealth of cantrips that can be useful to even a 20th level adventurer, nor does it consider expanded spells from things like the Elemental Evil Player's Guide.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Fanaelialae, post: 6595659, member: 53980"] So you're saying that if your AC is good enough that you're only hit 70% of the time, then dropping that hit rate to 45% isn't advantageous? That doesn't track. Sure, if you've boosted your AC into the mid 20s and you're attacked by goblins with a +4 to hit, Shield is pointless. Against an Ancient Dragon with a +15 to hit (or other powerful enemy) there is very much a point to it. No need to call foul on Action Surge. Ignore it if you like. The Fighter 20 still has 4 attacks with a 45% chance to hit versus the Fighter 19/Wizard 1's 3 attacks with a 70% chance to hit. Still clearly advantageous. The F20 may very well still win the fight, but Shield gives the F/W a solid fighting chance. That's all I was trying to show. Remember, I agreed that the F20 is superior in terms of raw power. I'm merely showing how the F/W is 20th level in capability. Breadth vs depth. My turn to call foul. If the F20 can knock the F/W prone, then the F/W can knock the F20 prone. Advantage gives the F/W a 91% chance to hit, whereas it only give the F20 a 69.75% chance to hit. So? The F/W is only using Expeditious Retreat to engage with the enemy so that he doesn't lose his first round of attacks. He's not likely to lose concentration when he casts it, since it's on his turn. If he maintains concentration, great, that's icing on the cake. If not, it's already done its job. Sure, in some cases. And in some cases, like an anti-magic zone, having spells might not help at all. But there's a lot more to those utility spells than a simple pass/fail on being able to participate. As I said, if you use Disguise Self and succeed, then the target doesn't know that you know. If you bribe or intimidate him, then he knows that you know. Knowledge is power, therefore it's reasonable that it's advantageous that he not know that you know. I've shown how a number of spells are advantageous. And there are many more I could demonstrate the advantage of having access to including: Alarm, Charm Person, Detect Magic, Find Familiar, Fog Cloud, Grease, Identify, Illusory Script, Jump, Longstrider, Protection from Good and Evil, Silent Image, Tenser's Floating Disk, and Unseen Servant. That doesn't include the wealth of cantrips that can be useful to even a 20th level adventurer, nor does it consider expanded spells from things like the Elemental Evil Player's Guide. [/QUOTE]
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