Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Monsters as PCs
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Kobold Stew" data-source="post: 6210264" data-attributes="member: 23484"><p>Another variable in 3.x that caused problems was the existence of monster levels: a race could have a level adjustment (as described), but could also be forced to take two or more levels of generic "humanoid". Almost always, this represented physical size: gnolls, ogres, centaurs, giants all had monster levels in addition to level adjustment, which were added to class levels. </p><p></p><p>So a level 6 human ranger compared to a level 3 gnoll ranger (2 humanoid, 1 LA, 3 class = 6). Again, the idea was sound, but it had a number of problems:</p><p></p><p>a. <strong>scaling abilities</strong>, as described above.</p><p>b. <strong>lack of comprehension by players</strong>. So many players failed to see the ECL as the sum of all three elements (witness many threads on these boards).</p><p>c. <strong>humanoid levels are conceptually prior to class levels</strong>. A character's first levels were always humanoid or monster levels, but that meant that all monster characters with bulk lost out on the benefits of being a first-level character. This was particularly felt with skills: since first-level chars received 4x the skill points when compared to any other level, your class at level 1 mattered (it provided the available skills for investment, as well as the points). When you only had one or two skills you could choose, and you had very few points to invest anyways, even an intelligent humanoid could only have one or two skills maxed, as opposed to four or more of the non-LA characters. </p><p>d. <strong>humanoid levels required a LA of at least +1</strong>. This was a decision that was made at the design stage that no doubt seemed good, but in execution meant that almost all races with humanoid levels lagged behind. Gnolls and Ogres simply lacked the extra abilities represented by class levels and were already being "punished" in design by the humanoid levels. </p><p></p><p>All four of these factors combined to make the 3.x LA system less effective than it could have been. Savage Species tried to ameliorate this, but never succeeded in winning over the masses, I feel.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Kobold Stew, post: 6210264, member: 23484"] Another variable in 3.x that caused problems was the existence of monster levels: a race could have a level adjustment (as described), but could also be forced to take two or more levels of generic "humanoid". Almost always, this represented physical size: gnolls, ogres, centaurs, giants all had monster levels in addition to level adjustment, which were added to class levels. So a level 6 human ranger compared to a level 3 gnoll ranger (2 humanoid, 1 LA, 3 class = 6). Again, the idea was sound, but it had a number of problems: a. [B]scaling abilities[/B], as described above. b. [B]lack of comprehension by players[/B]. So many players failed to see the ECL as the sum of all three elements (witness many threads on these boards). c. [B]humanoid levels are conceptually prior to class levels[/B]. A character's first levels were always humanoid or monster levels, but that meant that all monster characters with bulk lost out on the benefits of being a first-level character. This was particularly felt with skills: since first-level chars received 4x the skill points when compared to any other level, your class at level 1 mattered (it provided the available skills for investment, as well as the points). When you only had one or two skills you could choose, and you had very few points to invest anyways, even an intelligent humanoid could only have one or two skills maxed, as opposed to four or more of the non-LA characters. d. [B]humanoid levels required a LA of at least +1[/B]. This was a decision that was made at the design stage that no doubt seemed good, but in execution meant that almost all races with humanoid levels lagged behind. Gnolls and Ogres simply lacked the extra abilities represented by class levels and were already being "punished" in design by the humanoid levels. All four of these factors combined to make the 3.x LA system less effective than it could have been. Savage Species tried to ameliorate this, but never succeeded in winning over the masses, I feel. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Monsters as PCs
Top