Monsters, class levels and going over 20...

[Olive]

Just a quick check: monsters whose racial HD and class levels add up to over 20 should use the chatracters over 20th level chart in the DMG right? So a 19HD monster with 3 class levels (total HD 22) should have 8 feats and 5 ability score increases?

Never done a monster this high before, so just checking I've got it right.

 

[MerricB]

An interesting question, Olive!

The answer is on page 209 of the 3.5E DMG: you use the ECL to determine how many "epic" levels it should have (thus giving the Epic Attack bonus and Epic save bonuses rather than normal).

I think most people ignore that for the most part - only for PCs do they really use the Epic Level rules.

Cheers!

 

[Pax]

The ELH shoudl be considered the Primary Source for all things Epic. And the ELH says, ECL is NOT the determining factor. Hit Dice are.

A 19HD monster with three class levels gets the full benefits of the first class level ... and the benefits of two epic levels.

Same as a human with 22 class levels would get.

 

[Olive]

The ELH shoudl be considered the Primary Source for all things Epic.

Even in 3.5 ? I would ahve thought that the DMG should supersceed it.

 

[James McMurray]

It should also be mentioned that the Draonomicon lists several [Epic] feats and specifically lists them as takable by dragons of age Old or older. This in spite of the fact that most dragons will have 21+ hit dice well before they are old, and they'll have a 21 ECL even faster.

It kept me from taking a couple of Epic feats with a planar ally.

 

[Pax]

Even in 3.5 ? I would ahve thought that the DMG should supersceed it.

Even in 3.5 ... where the ELH needed to be adjusted to come into line wiht 3.5, the D&D 3.5 Update Booklet is the only modification needed.

Remember that the treatment of Epic levels int eh DMG is just a teaser, something to hold folks over until they get the actual ELH (or until WOTC releases a new ELH for the revision).

The rPHB FAQ specifically describes the concept of "Primary Source" -- sicn ethe Epic Level Handbook is the sourcebook for dealing with Epic-level characters, feats, and so on ... while the DMG is not specifically written to address those issues ... the ELH is the Primary Source.

Just like the DMG is theprimary source for, oh ... magic items. And the MM is the primary source for Monsters and their abilities, while the PHB is the primary source for spells and character classes.

And so on.

 

[Olive]

Even in 3.5 ... where the ELH needed to be adjusted to come into line wiht 3.5, the D&D 3.5 Update Booklet is the only modification needed.

No offense, but that's ludicrious. The 3.5 Update is a stopgap measure designed to allow certain older books to continue to be used with a minimum of fuss and effort. For example, if you really wanted to update alot of those creatures updated to 3.5 it would take much more work. As an example, even FF creatures such as demons have vastly fewer HD than the revised MM versions.

Regardless, here's what I think I'm doing. To be an 'epic' monster, NPC etc. and to therefore qualify for epic feats you need to have 20 racial HD, 20 class HD or 10 PrC HD. The creature I'm creating has none of these. I realise that this means that I'm contradicting the Draconomicon, but it makes sense to me.

Regardless, the MM says (p291) "A monster's total HD, not its ECL, govern its aquisition of feats and ability score increases". This means that the ELH does more or less apply, as Pax said. So we use the HD for feats etc. Which is waht I've done. Watch the Rogue's Gallery some time today for the result of this question!