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<blockquote data-quote="GlassJaw" data-source="post: 5059077" data-attributes="member: 22103">This is somewhat related to the creature advancement discussion but it's a little more &quot;out there&quot; so I wanted to start a new thread.As I've been going through the stat blocks, one thing that I've been thinking about is the seemingly &quot;arbitrariness&quot; of creature Hit Dice and Advancement.For example, let's start with the aboleth.&nbsp; It has 8 Hit Dice and is CR 7.&nbsp; Why does it have 8 HD?&nbsp; Is that considered an average &quot;adult&quot; aboleth?&nbsp; Did the designers just pick a number out of a hat?&nbsp; Or did they need a CR 7 aberration to fill a slot?The aboleth has an advancement of 9-16 HD (Huge) and 17-24 HD (Gargantuan).&nbsp; Wulf and I have had many discussions on what is the &quot;definition&quot; of a Hit Die ?&nbsp; It is meat?&nbsp; Natural Talent?&nbsp; Training?&nbsp; A combination of the three?The Monster Manual states &quot;The advancement line shows how tough (emphasis mine) a creature can get.&nbsp; Often, intelligent creatures advance by gaining a level in a character class instead of just gaining a new Hit Die.&quot;So it &quot;toughness&quot; meat, or does it involve additional talent and/or training?&nbsp; And if it is talent and training, why does it's size increase as it gains more HD?&nbsp; A human doesn't grow as it advances in level.&nbsp; If you assume that class levels are considered &quot;training&quot;, does that mean that growing by HD advancement counts as meat only?Let's take another example, the troll.&nbsp; The troll is 6 HD, CR 5, and Advancement by character class.Using the logic I stated above, this would lead me to believe that the troll can never gain more &quot;meat&quot; since it's HD cannot advance.&nbsp; It can become more powerful by gaining additional training but per &quot;the rules&quot;, trolls with more than 6 &quot;meat&quot; Hit Dice don't exist.So my first question is should you be able to advance a troll's HD without adding class levels?&nbsp; Is this an arbitrary restriction?&nbsp; Is this adhering to some kind of &quot;implied simulationism&quot; in that the rules are restricting certain creatures from existing?For example, should a Huge, 12 HD troll be &quot;allowed&quot; to exist in this world?&nbsp; These are of course rhetorical questions.&nbsp; I don't mean to impose my own opinion on the matter.&nbsp; They only serve to kickoff the discussion.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="GlassJaw, post: 5059077, member: 22103"] This is somewhat related to the creature advancement discussion but it's a little more "out there" so I wanted to start a new thread. As I've been going through the stat blocks, one thing that I've been thinking about is the seemingly "arbitrariness" of creature Hit Dice and Advancement. For example, let's start with the aboleth. It has 8 Hit Dice and is CR 7. Why does it have 8 HD? Is that considered an average "adult" aboleth? Did the designers just pick a number out of a hat? Or did they need a CR 7 aberration to fill a slot? The aboleth has an advancement of 9-16 HD (Huge) and 17-24 HD (Gargantuan). Wulf and I have had many discussions on what is the "definition" of a Hit Die ? It is meat? Natural Talent? Training? A combination of the three? The Monster Manual states "The advancement line shows how [B][I]tough [/I][/B] (emphasis mine) a creature can get. Often, intelligent creatures advance by gaining a level in a character class instead of just gaining a new Hit Die." So it "toughness" meat, or does it involve additional talent and/or training? And if it is talent and training, why does it's size increase as it gains more HD? A human doesn't grow as it advances in level. If you assume that class levels are considered "training", does that mean that growing by HD advancement counts as meat only? Let's take another example, the troll. The troll is 6 HD, CR 5, and Advancement by character class. Using the logic I stated above, this would lead me to believe that the troll can never gain more "meat" since it's HD cannot advance. It can become more powerful by gaining additional training but per "the rules", trolls with more than 6 "meat" Hit Dice don't exist. So my first question is should you be able to advance a troll's HD without adding class levels? Is this an arbitrary restriction? Is this adhering to some kind of "implied simulationism" in that the rules are restricting certain creatures from existing? For example, should a Huge, 12 HD troll be "allowed" to exist in this world? These are of course rhetorical questions. I don't mean to impose my own opinion on the matter. They only serve to kickoff the discussion. [/QUOTE]

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