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<blockquote data-quote="BryonD" data-source="post: 5059171" data-attributes="member: 957">I'm assuming that this is one of the rhetorical questions.&nbsp; But Monte at one point specifically stated that the only reason the Phantom Fungus existed is they needed a monster to fit the CR/Type slot.&nbsp; And he was saying it in a fairly critical manner.&nbsp; Obviously the Aboleth does not exist to fit a slot.&nbsp; But the specifics of its 3E incarnation may be exactly that.I actually solved this once.&nbsp; But I don't have space to write the answer in this message board.Honestly, I prefer to see monster HD as meat and class levels as other.&nbsp; But I most certainly will refuse to claim that covers every case, or even that there are not many cases it fails to cover.Consider the HP of a ghost human wizard 7, a ghost stone giant, and a ghost stone giant wizard 7.I believe the intent is that a troll can not gain racial HD.&nbsp; I think the idea is that a 7HD troll is equivalent to a human with 1 racial HD.&nbsp; And in D&amp;D terms Conan the Barbarian has the same number of racial hit dice as Tiny Tim (forever and always zero).I wouldn't have thought of it in those terms, but 'implied simulation&quot; seems to fit in that humans in D&amp;D can't gain racial HD, but really big versions of animals are expressed by adding HD.&nbsp; This precedent is then expanded to other creatures.&nbsp; I don't know if it would hold that WotC was particularly true to this principle or not.&nbsp; I'd be very unsurprised if direct contradictions could be found.&nbsp; But it seems a rule of thumb at least.Well, MMIII has the Huge 15 HD Mountain Troll and the Large 12 HD War Troll.Maybe the answer to your question is that advancing trolls by racial HD would infringe on WotC's ability to crank out new product.&nbsp; So the answer in the books is &quot;no, it should no be allowed&quot;, but now that WotC has moved on the answer is:&quot;Whatever&quot;.I certainly see the limitations of monster build options as a shortcoming of 3X as it exists.&nbsp; I think you can gather that from other comments as well.&nbsp; However, in this case the question to ask is: would a Huge 12 HD Troll improve the game?&nbsp; I could give a troll 6 levels of fighter and Permanency+ Enlarge Person (yes, I'm ignoring the type restriction, I play PF).&nbsp; Would that be any different than your re-tooled advanced troll?&nbsp; Or wouldn't a &quot;huge&quot; troll be a distinct race of troll deserving its own stats anyway, just as a bugbear compared to a goblin?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="BryonD, post: 5059171, member: 957"] I'm assuming that this is one of the rhetorical questions. But Monte at one point specifically stated that the only reason the Phantom Fungus existed is they needed a monster to fit the CR/Type slot. And he was saying it in a fairly critical manner. Obviously the Aboleth does not exist to fit a slot. But the specifics of its 3E incarnation may be exactly that. I actually solved this once. But I don't have space to write the answer in this message board. Honestly, I prefer to see monster HD as meat and class levels as other. But I most certainly will refuse to claim that covers every case, or even that there are not many cases it fails to cover. Consider the HP of a ghost human wizard 7, a ghost stone giant, and a ghost stone giant wizard 7. I believe the intent is that a troll can not gain racial HD. I think the idea is that a 7HD troll is equivalent to a human with 1 racial HD. And in D&D terms Conan the Barbarian has the same number of racial hit dice as Tiny Tim (forever and always zero). I wouldn't have thought of it in those terms, but 'implied simulation" seems to fit in that humans in D&D can't gain racial HD, but really big versions of animals are expressed by adding HD. This precedent is then expanded to other creatures. I don't know if it would hold that WotC was particularly true to this principle or not. I'd be very unsurprised if direct contradictions could be found. But it seems a rule of thumb at least. Well, MMIII has the Huge 15 HD Mountain Troll and the Large 12 HD War Troll. Maybe the answer to your question is that advancing trolls by racial HD would infringe on WotC's ability to crank out new product. So the answer in the books is "no, it should no be allowed", but now that WotC has moved on the answer is:"Whatever". I certainly see the limitations of monster build options as a shortcoming of 3X as it exists. I think you can gather that from other comments as well. However, in this case the question to ask is: would a Huge 12 HD Troll improve the game? I could give a troll 6 levels of fighter and Permanency+ Enlarge Person (yes, I'm ignoring the type restriction, I play PF). Would that be any different than your re-tooled advanced troll? Or wouldn't a "huge" troll be a distinct race of troll deserving its own stats anyway, just as a bugbear compared to a goblin? [/QUOTE]

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