D&D 5E Monsters of Many Names - Wandering Monsters (Yugoloth!)

[Savage Wombat]

Sorry, but that's MC 8 when the outer planar stuff came out. With a publishing date of 1991, three years after 2e's release. Remember, 2e had no demons for quite some time.

Doesn't say anything about Planescape though. Doesn't use the Planescape names for the planes (Nirvana instead of Mechanus, for example). Also, as a MC, still a core book. Unless you're going to claim that a particular date is suddenly the magical cut-off for canon.

 

[Hussar]

Doesn't say anything about Planescape though. Doesn't use the Planescape names for the planes (Nirvana instead of Mechanus, for example). Also, as a MC, still a core book. Unless you're going to claim that a particular date is suddenly the magical cut-off for canon.

Well, to be honest, the idea of core is a bit fuzzier when you're talking about AD&D. In AD&D, everything was assumed to be core. At least, that was the intent. It wasn't until 3e that you get a very sharp demarcation between core and not-core.

But, in any case, we're still talking three years of 2e before you get any Planescape material at all.

In fact, 3.5e is the outlier here. 1e obviously had no Planescape, although it certainly had the Great Wheel cosmology at least outlined. 2e had no planar cosmology at all on release and it was years before you got any. You couldn't have the Great Wheel when you don't have any good or evil outsiders to speak of. Granted, once they decided that Planescape would be the meta-setting that unified all the settings under one umbrella, Planescape went great guns and started showing up everywhere.

Forward to 3e. All that Planescape stuff? Gone out of core. It's barely even mentioned. Great Wheel is there, barely, although there's nothing really mentioned about it specifically in the Core 3 books. Planar elements are pretty much gone and there certainly isn't any mention of the Blood war or anything resembling Planescape lore. Heck, the aforementioned Rod of Seven Parts isn't even in the 3e DMG. (I just checked).

It's not until 3.5 that Planescape gets to appear in core books. And, then, it gets to infiltrate virtually every planar supplement from that point forward. It's all Planescape ALL the time. Even in things like Book of Exalted Deeds have Planescape elements showing up. Every Dungeon adventure dealing with the Planes gets the Planescape seal of approval. As Shemeska said, if you wanted to publish anything for D&D that dealt with the planes, you had to go Planescape.

Then 4e rolls along and resets the baseline again. Planescape lore gets ejected. Although, this time, it gets replaced by something else. I'm not sure if that was a good thing or not. But, at least it was something different instead of the same old death grip that Planescape lore has on everything else.

But, the idea that Planescape is the baseline for all things planar in D&D is only true if you presume that latter era 2e and 3.5 D&D are the only D&D's out there. Because it sure isn't true for the rest of the game.

 

[Savage Wombat]

Well, to be honest, the idea of core is a bit fuzzier when you're talking about AD&D. In AD&D, everything was assumed to be core. At least, that was the intent. It wasn't until 3e that you get a very sharp demarcation between core and not-core.

But, in any case, we're still talking three years of 2e before you get any Planescape material at all.

Since it was ANOTHER three years (1994) before Planescape actually came out, I don't think it makes it Planescape material. It just means they didn't publish the planar stuff until later.

I also believe there were more than a few PS references in the 3.0 Manual of the Planes. And your description of the pervasiveness of the planar material in 3rd edition materials continues to suggest to me that it was considered the core definition of the planes, not the "setting specific" concept you describe.

Planescape isn't the "baseline" as you describe - Planescape uses and expands on the baseline created by core materials. See, when you complain about Planescape showing up in other stuff, I think about things like the references to cant and spell keys gratuitously thrown into FR novels. Or if a Dragonlance book had a wizard mention Sigil. I can see being irritated at that. But complaining because 2nd edition materials gave some additional character to under-developed planar races, and then complaining that the majority of gamers voted in a poll to maintain that flavor instead of radically changing it - that's not the same thing at all.

I'm just not seeing your claim that Planescape players are "stepping all over" the discussion - I'm only seeing that the people who don't like the materials have an issue with the ones who do.

 

[Hussar]

I'm just not seeing your claim that Planescape players are "stepping all over" the discussion - I'm only seeing that the people who don't like the materials have an issue with the ones who do.

Really?

It was suggested that Yuguloths could worship gods. In this thread it was suggested. That idea was shot down, without any discussion, not because the idea was bad, but because it contradicted Planescape canon.

It was suggested that demons and devils could work together. Automatically shot down because demons and devils hate each other. Which is only true if you accept Planescape lore. Outside of Planescape and the Blood War (which I honestly do lump together), there is nothing to even suggest that demons and devils can't work together.

It was suggested that Slaad could be aberrations, and not outsiders. Again, idea shot down, not because it was a bad idea (it very well might be) but because it contradicted Planescape canon.

4e changes to cosmology are constantly derided simply because they contradict Planescape canon.

On and on. Any change to any Planescape lore is met with instant and automatic rejection. Try it sometime. Suggest changes to planar lore and see how far you get.

As far as stuff outside of core like the Manual of the Planes? Go ahead. Do whatever you want. That's a supplement and I can take it or leave it. But, please, keep it out of core.

 

[I'm A Banana]

It was suggested that Yuguloths could worship gods. In this thread it was suggested. That idea was shot down, without any discussion, not because the idea was bad, but because it contradicted Planescape canon.

It was suggested that demons and devils could work together. Automatically shot down because demons and devils hate each other. Which is only true if you accept Planescape lore. Outside of Planescape and the Blood War (which I honestly do lump together), there is nothing to even suggest that demons and devils can't work together.

It was suggested that Slaad could be aberrations, and not outsiders. Again, idea shot down, not because it was a bad idea (it very well might be) but because it contradicted Planescape canon.

Dude...what the...all the....*sigh*. It's like you haven't even been paying attention.

That's it, once we're done with Dark Sun, I'm going run a Planescape game, just to actually ram it down your throat.

 

[avin]

That's it, once we're done with Dark Sun, I'm going run a Planescape game, just to actually ram it down your throat.

Humans, Elves, Dwarves, Gnomes and Hobbi, er, Halflings not allowed as player races?

 

[Savage Wombat]

Really?

It was suggested that Yuguloths could worship gods. In this thread it was suggested. That idea was shot down, without any discussion, not because the idea was bad, but because it contradicted Planescape canon.

It was suggested that demons and devils could work together. Automatically shot down because demons and devils hate each other. Which is only true if you accept Planescape lore. Outside of Planescape and the Blood War (which I honestly do lump together), there is nothing to even suggest that demons and devils can't work together.

It was suggested that Slaad could be aberrations, and not outsiders. Again, idea shot down, not because it was a bad idea (it very well might be) but because it contradicted Planescape canon.

4e changes to cosmology are constantly derided simply because they contradict Planescape canon.

On and on. Any change to any Planescape lore is met with instant and automatic rejection. Try it sometime. Suggest changes to planar lore and see how far you get.

As far as stuff outside of core like the Manual of the Planes? Go ahead. Do whatever you want. That's a supplement and I can take it or leave it. But, please, keep it out of core.

See, you've cycled back to your talking points. The point under discussion, as you agreed earlier, is "Hussar does not think that Planescape material should be considered canon going forward." Not "Planescape fans are keeping me from having my opinion considered." Your opinion is being considered, and discussed. If Shemeska DIDN'T say "Yugoloths don't even like gods" than it's his (her?) opinion that would be kept from consideration.

The ideas you mentioned were not shot down because "they weren't Planescape". They were shot down because the people who like the Planescape-influenced version prefer to keep it that way, not change it arbitrarily (personal opinion). That's our right, ESPECIALLY if the opinion is being polled by the game designers.

Now, if Shemeska were a moderator and ban-hammered you for defending slaads-as-aberrations, that would be "shooting down without discussion". If you had written an article proposing yugoloths-as-godbotherers, and Ryan Dancey refused to print it because "yugoloths hate gods", that would be "shooting down without discussion". But Shemeska disagreeing with you is just Shemeska disagreeing with you.

I still think the main point should be that we disagree with you about where to draw the line between "core-canon" and "Planescape". Stick with that argument.

 

[pemerton]

the idea that Planescape is the baseline for all things planar in D&D is only true if you presume that latter era 2e and 3.5 D&D are the only D&D's out there. Because it sure isn't true for the rest of the game.

For me, this is the main issue. Planescape doesn't get a free pass on defining daemons/"yugoloths" any more than Greyhawk gets a free pass on defining orcs/"uruz" or gnolls/"kell".

 

[urLordy]

While I do like the idea of a fuzzy lens view of demonology (in other words, present all fiends as 'demons' and let the DM or campaign setting sort out the devils in the details), consistency in monster design and world building could suffer as a result.

For example, if you decide that devils are lawful and demons are evil chaos incarnate, then it makes sense to design devilish appearances with some cohesiveness, whereas demons could assume a cacophony of shapes and forms. But if the designers did not design the fiends with that umbrella concept in mind, it could be rather time consuming to peg your devils and demons the way you wanted.

I know some people don't care about world building consistency, and that's fine at an individual level, but these things can and do come back to bite you in the ass (for example, taking Slaadi that were never originally designed to be Chaotic Neutral denizens of Limbo and sticking them there in Planescape and then being forced to come up with canon justifications as to why frog people are chaos incarnate -- had they designed it from the ground up, Limbo's natives might have been more like Chaos Beasts or fiendish chaotic fey things).

Also, a baseline is kinda useful to setting expectations in world-building (ie., D&D assumes devils are lawful evil fiends in the Seven Hells, I accept that it will take some work for me to reskin them all as frozen hell frost giant demons)

 

[Stoat]

For example, if you decide that devils are lawful and demons are evil chaos incarnate, then it makes sense to design devilish appearances with some cohesiveness, whereas demons could assume a cacophony of shapes and forms. But if the designers did not design the fiends with that umbrella concept in mind, it could be rather time consuming to peg your devils and demons the way you wanted.

I agree, and I think one problem with D&D's fiends is that they were not designed with that umbrella concept in mind back in the late 1970's/early 1980's. Devilish appearances are only kinda cohesive (frex, both the Gelugon and the Osyluth stand out from the others). Demon appearances are not "a cacophony of shapes and forms." There are a few clearly delineated "types" of demon, and each has a regular, predictable form and regular, predictable abilities.

One of the reasons I prefer the World Axis cosmology to the Great Wheel Cosmology is because it tries to bring an umbrella concept to devils and demons that (IMO obviously) fits them better than the GW did. However, even the WA bugs me a little. If it were up to me, I'd scrap the existing fiends entirely and start over.