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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6130078" data-attributes="member: 42582">I'm one of those who doesn't see a lot of need for "yugoloths"/"daemons" as a distinct branch of the fiendish family.In Vault of the Drow, they were - in story role and game function - basically demon variants. This is how 4e casts them, and it works for me.In Monster Manual II, they were still basically demon variants. There main differences were purely mechanical - different immunities, and funky magic resistance rules. The exception to this is Charon and Charonodaemons. I'm a big fan of these, and have used them in play, but their is no reason for them to be part of a family of fiends - they could equally be well be found in the Greek Myths section of Deities and Demigods. Or they could be grouped together with the Styx Devil as a type of devil - that steers souls to the afterlife provided the proper payment is made, but otherwise steals those souls for diabolic purposes. And in my own games I've used them as a distinct group of Astral/Ethereal inhabitants.The Planescape-derived stuff doesn't do a lot for me personally. The idea that demons and devils are latecomers to the planar situation, and the real action involves obscure dealings of ancient entities that most PCs (and many players) probably won't know about, and sinister motives and schemes which (unlike, say, diabolical schemes) are too inhuman to be fathomed, implies that the things mortals typically do know and care about - eg demons and devils - are ultimately of little significance. It's a type of "gnosticisim of evil" which I personally find unappealing in an RPG. I don't object to backstory, but I'm not a big fan of backstory that reveals the concerns of the players and the PCs to have ultimately been misguided or grounded in ignorance.To the extent that 4e preserves Planescape tropes, like the obyriths and the Blood War, it does it in a way that I feel reinforces the truth of what the PCs and players know - demons are a corruption of the natural order, and therefore a source of destruction; the devils' betrayal and fall is a consquence of their rejection of the divinely-ordained order - rather than being based on a "gnosticism of evil".</blockquote>

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