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Monsters of Many Names - Wandering Monsters (Yugoloth!)
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6136319" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>Presumably <em>some</em> account is needed, though, of why a paladin can be turned but a cleric can't.</p><p></p><p>All this applies to devils and demons, though. There is nothing in the original MM about devils or demons being physical personifications of alignment:</p><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">From MM p 16: "Demons are able to move from the own plane into those of <em>Tarterus</em>, <em>Hades</em> or <em>Pandemonium</em> . . . Demons are chaotic and evil; the smarter and stronger rule those of their kind who are weaker and less intelligent. . . Demons will never willingly serve anyone or anything."<br /> <br /> </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">From MM p 20: "The inhabitants and rulers of the planes of hell are principally devils, the most powerful of lawful evil creatures. They somewhat resemble the demons of chaos in their general abilities . . . Devils follow a definite order, a chain of command, which they dare not break for fear of the arch-devils. Still, there is great rivalry, even open antagonism . . . They can move to the planes of <em>Gehenna</em>, <em>Hades</em> and <em>Acheron</em> at will."</li> </ul><p></p><p>Not only is there nothing there about being the physical incarnation of an alignment, but it is pretty clear that these creatures work in the same way as you describe deities - that is, they are mythological themes and tropes rendered in AD&D terms, including alignment.</p><p></p><p>Hence my conclusion that there is no reason why, in AD&D, a devil and demon could not meet up on Hades to engage in some joint project. The demon would wish to bully and take charge, of course, and the devil might be concerned if it was going against the will of an arch-devil, but that is personality and politics, not metaphysics.</p><p></p><p>And [MENTION=16786]Stoat[/MENTION], I agree with the analysis in your post (which somewhat ninjas mine, but was on other other page when I started typing this!). Planescape locks down, rigidifies and expands a whole lot of stuff which was left open and loose in AD&D. For those who were (or still are) playing in the original AD&D style, Planescape is a pretty noticeable change. It is not neutral, generic or inherent in what we were already doing.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 6136319, member: 42582"] Presumably [i]some[/i] account is needed, though, of why a paladin can be turned but a cleric can't. All this applies to devils and demons, though. There is nothing in the original MM about devils or demons being physical personifications of alignment: [list][*]From MM p 16: "Demons are able to move from the own plane into those of [i]Tarterus[/i], [i]Hades[/i] or [i]Pandemonium[/i] . . . Demons are chaotic and evil; the smarter and stronger rule those of their kind who are weaker and less intelligent. . . Demons will never willingly serve anyone or anything." [*]From MM p 20: "The inhabitants and rulers of the planes of hell are principally devils, the most powerful of lawful evil creatures. They somewhat resemble the demons of chaos in their general abilities . . . Devils follow a definite order, a chain of command, which they dare not break for fear of the arch-devils. Still, there is great rivalry, even open antagonism . . . They can move to the planes of [i]Gehenna[/i], [i]Hades[/i] and [i]Acheron[/i] at will."[/list] Not only is there nothing there about being the physical incarnation of an alignment, but it is pretty clear that these creatures work in the same way as you describe deities - that is, they are mythological themes and tropes rendered in AD&D terms, including alignment. Hence my conclusion that there is no reason why, in AD&D, a devil and demon could not meet up on Hades to engage in some joint project. The demon would wish to bully and take charge, of course, and the devil might be concerned if it was going against the will of an arch-devil, but that is personality and politics, not metaphysics. And [MENTION=16786]Stoat[/MENTION], I agree with the analysis in your post (which somewhat ninjas mine, but was on other other page when I started typing this!). Planescape locks down, rigidifies and expands a whole lot of stuff which was left open and loose in AD&D. For those who were (or still are) playing in the original AD&D style, Planescape is a pretty noticeable change. It is not neutral, generic or inherent in what we were already doing. [/QUOTE]
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