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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6136464" data-attributes="member: 42582">Some more about why, in original AD&D, daemons did not have any particularly distinctive yugolothic identity:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">From MM2, p 27: "Daemons inhabit the Lower Outer Planes of Gehenna, Tarterus and the Glooms of Hades. There is a large number of daemon races, each race dominated by its strongest and most intelligent member. Weaker daemons are usually at the beck and call of stronger members of their race, while the strongest daemon, the oinodaemon, rules all." </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">From MM2 p 30: "There is but a single daemon master and lord of the Middle Planes. Known by the title oinodaemon, he is a unique individual of great power. . . As oinodaemon, Anthraxus bears the Staff of the Lower Planes . . . The staff has the powers of mass charm, beguilement (as rod), geas and grant another's wish. Note that Anthraxus will use the last only if it in some way leads to havoc and benefit to evil.</li> </ul>The strong and intelligent dominate and bully the weak - sounds like demons to me (as per my quote above from the MM, which is reproduced in the MM2 at p 35). Anthraxus, the oinodaemon, will only grant wishes if they in some way lead to havoc. Sounds chaotically evil to me - certainly no suggestion of a subtle plan that marks daemons out as radically different from demons.Apart from their distinctive array of resistances, and their whacky magic resistance, the only thing that marks daemons off from demons is (i) their home planes, and (ii) the remark on p 27 that "they resemble both devils and demons, and they will associate with either for their own purposes."And on the topic of Hades-dwellers, here is some information on Hordelings (MM2 p 75):The hordlings who form the Hordes of Hades are of varied form, size, power, and appearance. They have in common hideousness and hatefulness. They roam the reaches of Hades preying upon all things, including one another. The strong slay and devour the weak. They will serve under strong leaders . . . but they are untrustworthy, rebellious, and quarrelsome, so hordes are not long-lived (nor are hordlings). The dispostion of hordlings is in fact chaotic. Similar creatures are also common on the Planes of Tarterus, and a few are found on the Abyssal Planes.Despite the Neutral Evil alignment entry, what we have here is a creature in description indistinguishable from a demon - down to its chaotic disposition and its strong-prey-on-weak lifestlye. It even hangs out on all the same planes, except Pandemonium.For a player like me, who more-or-less bypassed the details of Planescape, the 4e incorporation of daemons isn't a travesty - it's a sensible rationalisation which, once the AD&D lower planar and alignment configuration is abandoned, fits with the pre-established lore.</blockquote>

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