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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mistwell" data-source="post: 137271" data-attributes="member: 2525">"voluptuous and beautiful women" ?!?Begin Rant.  I've gotta do it.  It's going to bring heat down on me, I know.  And I don't like being critical of creativity (nor any form of censorship).  But I feel compelled to beat my head against this rock anyway, in hopes that somebody will understand.The title of this thread, "Monsters, Women, Glory, and Gold!", along with part of the description stating "voluptuous and beautiful women, who are also often terrifyingly dangerous as they are seductive" is (here it comes) very sexist, sterotypical, and the kind of thing I was hoping was finally, at last, gone from this game.  It's exactly the kind of statement that makes some (not all) women turn away from this game.  It makes some (not all) women feel alienated, and unwelcome.  When I asked some women (not a statistically large sample, but the only sample I had) why they did not play the game, or why they waited to play the game until they were older, they all said essentially the same thing: "Boys, when they are teenagers and first playing the game, did not want girls playing. When I tried to play, they didn't explain the rules very well (and the rule books were over-whelmingly large and complex, requiring a huge commitment of time to figure out, which didn't seem worth doing if I didn't feel welcome to begin with), they didn't treat me like an equal, and they made fun of me when I did something "wrong". I think it was a male bonding kind of thing." I think this game attracts a disproportionate number of men.  I think it would be a good thing for this game, and for the entire genre of fantasy fiction as a whole, to attract more women.  You can disagree with either/both those statements, and all I will say is "fair enough".  I have no large-scale study proving that many more men play this game than do women, I just know it's true (on a level that I think a court would accept under the Judicial Notice rule - any reasonable person with even limited experience in the field in question would accept it as fact).  And as for it being a good thing to increase the number of women interested in this game, well, that really is just a matter of opinion.  I think it would increase the popularity of the game as a whole, would help reach the critical mass of interest necessary to break in to the mainstream of entertainment, would result in more diverse supplements to the game, and that all of those things would be a good thing.  I'm making this post with full knowledge of what some of the more compelling responses will be:"Conan-type fantasies portrayed women like that, and they were interesting/cool books/movies.  We shouldn't have to change that just for political correctness.  Nobody is making you play your game like this, you play your politically correct setting, and we will play our kind of setting."Those really are all good responses.  I still, however, think it does not outweigh the interest of getting rid of the sexism in the game. And it IS sexist.  Yes, there might be "strong and handsome men, who are also often terrifyingly dangerous as they are alluring" in the setting in question.  But that wasn't the focus of the setting, wasn't in the title of the post, and misses the point even if it had also been mentioned.  Men do not feel alienated from this game. Men have had no trouble being portrayed as heros in the past.  If you think it is wrong that women are turned off by focusing on voluptuousness and seduction, fine.  But (some) women DO shy away from the game because of those things, and the reputation that the game carries, going back to the first edition of this game, of drawings of women wearing silly chainmail bikini's with breasts that are larger than their heads.Let the flames begin.  I know I won't persuade the vast majority of people here.  It's probably a futile thing to even say any of this.  I know that, 15 years ago when I was a teenager first playing this game, I would have disagreed with this post myself.But then maybe someone will rethink this issue next time it comes up, even if they disagree with me now.  I can hope that this genre will grow up, can't I?End Rant.</blockquote>

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