Monstrous PC Races: Are They Even Possible?

[Spatula]

As a fan of Dark Sun, I'm very curious about this. In Dark Sun, half-giants (more like ogres or Savage Species' half-ogres than the sorry half-giant imitations in the 3e psionics book) and thri-kreen were both player races, and 3e handled that reasonably well. The ECL/LA system was far from perfect, but playing a super-strong Large humanoid? A 4-armed bug man? It worked well enough.

A while back (last year I think) I recall comments from the 4e devs that your race was kind of like a parallel power track along with class, and that this would make playing monstrous races much easier to implement. For example, you hit level X, get something new from your class, and also get something new from your race. Which would allow "powerful" races to spread benefits over multiple levels and make it simpler to balance unusual features against the core races' benefits. That idea seems to have fallen by the wayside, or maybe it never existed and I was misunderstanding the early "your race should always matter" talk. In any case, now I wonder...

Can 4e handle player races with more than a +2 to an ability score? Size Large? Multiple arms? How would it balance such abilities vs the core races?

 

[keterys]

I think I'll have to disagree that it worked well...

But I had thought/hoped to see race tracks, similar to the paragon/epic ones. So I guess that went away in favor of just feats.

You could model some of the stuff with a lot of feats. Certainly, there's no reason thri-kreen need chatkcha proficiency or deflect arrows base, so you could just have an encounter power to make an attack with twice as many weapons and a jump movement and you're most of the way good for thri-kreen. Then you add lots more stuff with more feats. Armor is a big question mark there, but it's conquerable.

Large doesn't have nearly as many bonuses as it did in 3e, so the half-giant should actually be fairly easy.

 

[hong]

If anything, monstrous PCs should be _easier_ in 4E than in 3E. You don't have the requirement for an all-encompassing build framework, so you can just adjust each monster's stats to suit. This is also helped by how hp and defenses have been made more abstract compared to before.

Eg, ogre PC:
+20 hp
+4 Str
-4 Int
Considered 6th level for stat/XP/encounter purposes

Or, mind flayer PC for a paragon tier monster:
+80 hp
+4 Int
Mind blast 1/day, Int vs Will, stun on hit, save ends
Devour brain 1/encounter [etc]
Considered 11th level for stat/XP/encounter purposes

 

[keterys]

For really powerful monsters, like a mind flayer, it's probably reasonable to eat a paragon path for the race and just not allow it before 11th, as well.

 

[Primal]

If anything, monstrous PCs should be _easier_ in 4E than in 3E. You don't have the requirement for an all-encompassing build framework, so you can just adjust each monster's stats to suit. This is also helped by how hp and defenses have been made more abstract compared to before.

Eg, ogre PC:
+20 hp
+4 Str
-4 Int
Considered 6th level for stat/XP/encounter purposes

Or, mind flayer PC for a paragon tier monster:
+80 hp
+4 Int
Mind blast 1/day, Int vs Will, stun on hit, save ends
Devour brain 1/encounter [etc]
Considered 11th level for stat/XP/encounter purposes

What, no "rechargeable" powers? Not even on 5 or 6? Sheesh...

 

[Spatula]

I think I'll have to disagree that it worked well...

For physical creatures that didn't have funky special abilities, it worked fine. Like I said it was far from perfect, and I was looking forward to the race/power progression concept, too, because it looked like it would be an improvement.

I considered feats, although some features should be intrinsic to the creature (bigger weapons or reach for a Large-size humanoid, for example), and it would feel a bit odd to have to "unlock" those traits with feats. Although perhaps the race would have a starting feat penalty (your first N feats are "used up" by your race).

If anything, monstrous PCs should be _easier_ in 4E than in 3E. You don't have the requirement for an all-encompassing build framework, so you can just adjust each monster's stats to suit. This is also helped by how hp and defenses have been made more abstract compared to before.

Eg, ogre PC:
+20 hp
+4 Str
-4 Int
Considered 6th level for stat/XP/encounter purposes

OK, so the answer is bring back the Level Adjustment. I was thinking that player races aren't supposed to have penalties ("you shouldn't be punished" or whatever).

 

[Fallen Seraph]

I don't think it will be too difficult, simply thanks to the whole idea of Racial Feats.

You can have monster races that while initially have certain bonuses and a Racial Power that sets them as being unique and powerful, but still even to other races and simply have the unique properties of that race come out more with Racial Feats.

 

[Sojorn]

Considered 6th level for stat/XP/encounter purposes
...
Considered 11th level for stat/XP/encounter purposes

What'd you mean with these two lines? Sounds like Level Adjustment, so I think I might have misunderstood.

 

[hong]

OK, so the answer is bring back the Level Adjustment. I was thinking that player races aren't supposed to have penalties ("you shouldn't be punished" or whatever).

Why is LA a "punishment"?

 

[pawsplay]

Why is LA a "punishment"?

It puts the LA on its ECL or else it gets the hose again.