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Message: <blockquote data-quote="jsaving" data-source="post: 5894485" data-attributes="member: 16726">I both agree and disagree -- how's that for clarity?  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />If Nintendo insiders akin to The Rouse were telling us that the proprietary sales information they've seen paint a dire picture for Wii sales, and if surveys posted on ENWorld and elsewhere said a competitor was overtaking the Wii using technology gleaned from the previous Wii model, and if Nintendo hurriedly scrapped the current Wii model years ahead of schedule because of those factors, then the Nintendo situation would be an apt analogy -- both the Wii and 4e would simply be ending a normal production run.  I don't see that any of those things apply to 4e, though, and hence don't think 4e can be described as the kind of unqualified success the Wii was for a fairly substained period.That said, I agree completely that it would be ridiculous to call 4e a flop.  It sold exceptionally well at the beginning of its production cycle, even if sales subsequently lagged expectations; it contained advances like themes and at-wills that will likely be a part of any future edition, even if it too readily disregarded similarly strong 3e features; and it demonstrated that rigid balance across classes was possible, even if it perhaps took away too much class distinctiveness in so doing.  It's also important to remember that 3.5 was faltering sales-wise toward the end of its life, so as not to mistakenly conclude (as some 3e-philes do) that everything in the world of D&D would have been fine if only 3.5 had remained in place forever.  Is it fair to say 4e's record is mixed overall?  I think so.  Can there be legitimate differences of opinion about just how successful it was/wasn't?  Sure.  But it simply isn't defensible to call 4e a flop with no redeeming features whatsoever, no matter how strongly any one of us might prefer 3e/Pathfinder or any other system.</blockquote>

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