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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 3940311" data-attributes="member: 4937">I'm really getting tired of this observation.  'Many' is meaningless in this context.  It means only, 'More than one.', and hense it is meaningless.Monte is right.  The situation now is different than it was then.  Noting that some people didn't like 3E and some people didn't like 4E doesn't prove that the situation is the same.  Not remotely.Note that says nothing about the quality of 4E or its liklihood of success, much less its success relative to 3E.But if we were to quantify the situation when 3E came out and compare it to some quantification of the situation now, I think it would be obvious how different the two were.  I don't have numbers, but my rememberance of the time just prior to D20 was that D&D was a has been game with a steadily declining market share.  White Wolf was making almost all the top hot games and TSR probably wasn't claiming more than a 1/3rd of the RPG groups.  Everyone was playing something other than D&D.  D20 was a juggernaut.  It was a steamroller.  It claimed a greater share of the shelfspace for D&D than any time since the early '80s.  It utterly transformed the market.  Even if you weren't playing D&D, chances are you were playing something inspired by its mechanics.  Go look at the shelfs now and compare them in your mind to what they looked like prior to 3E.  If I had numbers, I'm sure that they would back those claims up.  I don't know what things are like now.  Maybe sales are falling.  Maybe they aren't.  I don't know what's going on now.  But I can tell you what happened then, because what happened then was so the opposite of subtle that you couldn't miss it.The idea that people are as unhappy with 3.X now as they were with 2E is IMO ridiculous.  Monte of course sees it as it is.  Yes, some people complained about 3E then.  Yes, some people complain about 4E now.  Yes, some people were disenchanted with 2E then, and some people are disenchanted with 3E now.  But those statements are so superficial as to be more meaningless than meaningful.  They obscure the truth more than they reveal it.  Things are not the same now as they were then.</blockquote>

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