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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Imaro" data-source="post: 7694675" data-attributes="member: 48965">But it can be accomplished with fumble rules...Yes but even those systems are probably (I'm unfamiliar with them... except for the Mongoose version of Runequest so I can't be 100% sure) lacking in certain areas and unable to recreate certain situations that arise in fiction. If this is true how can you and others claim certain things that arise in the fiction aren't fumbles?  Exactly... so depending on the system, if you want to model certain actions that arise in fiction (with the regularity that they occur in said fiction) it may be necessary to introduce a "fumble" mechanic.  Now whether this is a good or bad thing is entirely group dependent but to claim that fumbles are unnecessary is to assume you know what game experience any and every group playing a particular game is looking for...But we aren't speaking specifically to RM...There is still a limit here to the effects that can be produced by these failures... correct?  What this does is set the precedent for what a failure constitutes in these particular games... however if a group (for whatever reason) wants a wider variety of results, more severe results, or even to give the GM the power to decide a specific and more relevant result of failure... well then fumble rules could be introduced to take care of that and thus a "need" for fumble rules arises.What I don't understand is how you and others like [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] are dismissing examples of "fumbles" when there is no default game system we are discussing to determine whether they can or can't be modeled without fumble rules?  Yes I'm sure somewhere for every example presented you can find a particular system that could model it without recourse to fumble rules... but the point is no system is capable of modelling all possibilities of these failures and thus the "need" as well as what constitutes a "fumble" is entirely group and rules system dependent.</blockquote>

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