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Monte Cook On Fumble Mechanics
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<blockquote data-quote="Imaro" data-source="post: 7695379" data-attributes="member: 48965"><p>Ok... just because Monte uses a term such as a "fumble" in a certain way, doesn't mean he is using it correctly (as shown by the different views in this very thread on what a fumble is)... As to what you quoted Charles Ryan posting...</p><p></p><p>EDIT (Emphasis Mine): Don't do that, nowhere in this thread have I claimed that major screw-up style fumbles don't make for particularly good RPGing... oh and by the way... THIS... is that badwrongfun implication I talked about earlier rearing it's head again.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Emphasis mine... He actually seems to be saying that the definition of a fumble shouldn't be restricted to this narrow definition that many, including yourself are using in this thread... the same thing I've been saying for numerous posts now.</p><p></p><p>As to why I am arguing with certain posters... well there are a few points on a few things I disagree (either in part or wholly) with...</p><p></p><p>1. The term "fumble" being (IMO, and apparently Charles Ryan's as well) incorrectly/too narrowly defined.</p><p>2. The assertion that character driven fumbles are universally less fun or less enjoyable for all gamers.</p><p> </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>1. Again basing a premise on an incorrectly defined term... is going to have people call you out. If I claim I don't like dogs on the basis of them being small and short haired and noisy... well it's perfectly correct for someone to call out that only specific breeds have these characteristics and I am incorrectly asserting that all dogs do.</p><p></p><p>2. That's not what the quote you posted shows at all... if anything he is stating that if you are narrowly defining the term fumble... you need to broaden your horizons on what a fumble is. I think maybe you need to re-read that post.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And we've hit another point of disagreement... there is no reason that a GM Intrusion can't be connected to the fiction with causal/dependence on character actions... the whole point is that they are open ended enough that if a DM wants them connected to the fiction in a causal/dependent way can easily do so. While those that prefer not to don't have to and finally those like me who like a mixture are accommodated as well. Quick question have you read or played any of the Cypher system games? I'm asking because I want to understand whether this is experience with the actual rules and system talking or just assumptions being made off... well whatever it is you're making your assumptions off of... here are some actual excerpts from the Numenera book on GM Intrusions...</p><p></p><p>Pg. 17 "Special Rolls"... Rolling a natural 1 is always bad. It means that the GM introduces a new complication into the encounter.</p><p></p><p>pg. 88 "GM Intrusion"... GM Intrusion is explained elsewhere, but essentially it means something occurs to complicate a character's life... The character hasn't necessarily fumbled or done anything wrong (although perhaps she did). It could just be that the task presents an unexpected difficulty or something unrelated affects the current situation.</p><p> For GM intrusion on a defensive roll, a roll of 1 might just mean that the PC takes 2 additional points of damage from the attack, indicating that the opponent got in a lucky blow. NOTE: This is surprisingly similar to the Vader chops Luke's hand of example earlier.</p><p></p><p>There is nothing in the rules, examples or advice for a GM Intrusion that prevents it from being tied to causal dependence to character's actions... of course there's nothing that forces it either. As I said in one of my earlier posts... the game gives you the mechanic and let's you use it how best fits your group. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Is it? What about the examples or rules for GM Intrusions leads you to believe this? Because my view on it, especially looking at the entire rules for GM Intrusions (not just those possible on a 1) doesn't seem to correlate with this assertion... </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>GM Intrusions don't happen exclusively on a 1... another reason that particular use of it (and the fact that the 1 roll is specifically called out in the rules as when something bad happens) seems to make a roll 1 GM Intrusion a fumble.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Imaro, post: 7695379, member: 48965"] Ok... just because Monte uses a term such as a "fumble" in a certain way, doesn't mean he is using it correctly (as shown by the different views in this very thread on what a fumble is)... As to what you quoted Charles Ryan posting... EDIT (Emphasis Mine): Don't do that, nowhere in this thread have I claimed that major screw-up style fumbles don't make for particularly good RPGing... oh and by the way... THIS... is that badwrongfun implication I talked about earlier rearing it's head again. Emphasis mine... He actually seems to be saying that the definition of a fumble shouldn't be restricted to this narrow definition that many, including yourself are using in this thread... the same thing I've been saying for numerous posts now. As to why I am arguing with certain posters... well there are a few points on a few things I disagree (either in part or wholly) with... 1. The term "fumble" being (IMO, and apparently Charles Ryan's as well) incorrectly/too narrowly defined. 2. The assertion that character driven fumbles are universally less fun or less enjoyable for all gamers. 1. Again basing a premise on an incorrectly defined term... is going to have people call you out. If I claim I don't like dogs on the basis of them being small and short haired and noisy... well it's perfectly correct for someone to call out that only specific breeds have these characteristics and I am incorrectly asserting that all dogs do. 2. That's not what the quote you posted shows at all... if anything he is stating that if you are narrowly defining the term fumble... you need to broaden your horizons on what a fumble is. I think maybe you need to re-read that post. And we've hit another point of disagreement... there is no reason that a GM Intrusion can't be connected to the fiction with causal/dependence on character actions... the whole point is that they are open ended enough that if a DM wants them connected to the fiction in a causal/dependent way can easily do so. While those that prefer not to don't have to and finally those like me who like a mixture are accommodated as well. Quick question have you read or played any of the Cypher system games? I'm asking because I want to understand whether this is experience with the actual rules and system talking or just assumptions being made off... well whatever it is you're making your assumptions off of... here are some actual excerpts from the Numenera book on GM Intrusions... Pg. 17 "Special Rolls"... Rolling a natural 1 is always bad. It means that the GM introduces a new complication into the encounter. pg. 88 "GM Intrusion"... GM Intrusion is explained elsewhere, but essentially it means something occurs to complicate a character's life... The character hasn't necessarily fumbled or done anything wrong (although perhaps she did). It could just be that the task presents an unexpected difficulty or something unrelated affects the current situation. For GM intrusion on a defensive roll, a roll of 1 might just mean that the PC takes 2 additional points of damage from the attack, indicating that the opponent got in a lucky blow. NOTE: This is surprisingly similar to the Vader chops Luke's hand of example earlier. There is nothing in the rules, examples or advice for a GM Intrusion that prevents it from being tied to causal dependence to character's actions... of course there's nothing that forces it either. As I said in one of my earlier posts... the game gives you the mechanic and let's you use it how best fits your group. Is it? What about the examples or rules for GM Intrusions leads you to believe this? Because my view on it, especially looking at the entire rules for GM Intrusions (not just those possible on a 1) doesn't seem to correlate with this assertion... GM Intrusions don't happen exclusively on a 1... another reason that particular use of it (and the fact that the 1 roll is specifically called out in the rules as when something bad happens) seems to make a roll 1 GM Intrusion a fumble. [/QUOTE]
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