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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mark CMG" data-source="post: 5693855" data-attributes="member: 10479">I think it is derogatory to use the phrase "fooling themselves" so I'm not sure why you would use it when I would not, but there is the idea of the suspension of disbelief in any roleplaying game that can more easily breakdown when players realize that the interface between themselves and their characters is more superficial than it needs to be.  As I was mentioning in another post, when a system bends over backwards to homogenize the various character classes such that they all produce essentially the same effect (or near-equal effects) in an effort to ensure inclusivity at all moments of gameplay, then it does produce a thinner veneer of individuality.  That's not subjective.  The problem stems from a system that begins by stressing individuality during character creation but then reduces that individuality to just the veneer while mechanically the effects are essentially equal.(You do realize there is a huge difference between your phrase of "everyone gets to participate as near-equals all the time" and my contention regarding everyone producing near-equal effects?  Again, your phrasing seems derogatory and isn't one I would use.  If you're not doing that on purpose, please be aware of it and try to curtail it.  If it is intentional, then there's not much I can do to stop you from that tactic except point it out and hope you reconsider.)What I am describing is not so much a style of gameplay as it is game design based on a literary genre that promotes a particular style of gameplay.  The idea of a heroic genre is not subjective.  It's roots go back to Gilgemesh and can be seen in all cultures from the ancient Greeks and Romans through the Middle Ages and on up through today.  So, too, does fantasy literature take its cue from these tales, myths and legends to create the epic, heroic stories that are regularly published.  I am sure that all tabletop roleplayers are familiar with the heroic genre as it is portrayed in many of these literary and published forms.Now if you are suggesting that Medieval Fantasy tabletop roleplaying game design move away from the heroic genre traditions to a style of game that strives for more inclusivity, I understand your motivation, but it is a departure from the traditional heroic genre and so will lose something in the process.  If that is not understood by the designers of such a game, they are likely to have mixed results.I think players will accept some measure of indirect participation during gameplay if it serves the genre while you seem to feel inclusivity during gameplay comes first even if the genre of play needs to change to bring about that goal.  That's where we seem to fundamentally disagree.</blockquote>

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