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<blockquote data-quote="Skyscraper" data-source="post: 5693877" data-attributes="member: 48518">This is an interesting point, but I'd probably rewrite it as follows: players who want to find stuff should play rogues, and players who want to search for stuff should play fighters or wizards. Heh.I think it depends on how the find stuff skill works. If your find-stuff-rogue arrives in a room, the player states &quot;i search the room for stuff&quot; and the DM just says &quot;you find a secret alcove behind an illusionary wall concealed behind the library shelves&quot;, that's one type of game. If the &quot;level&quot; of hidden objects requires even the rogue to be more specific to find such a well-hidden area, then I think the game is more targetted towards description-searching.And then there are the player preferences. I had a player recently, an old friend from an old 1E campaign from 20 years ago, try out a 4E game. He says to me &quot;I search the room&quot; at one point. I have him roll a d20 (I let them do that themselves, screw the meta <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/glasses.png"&nbsp; class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt="B-)" title="Glasses&nbsp; &nbsp; B-)" data-shortname="B-)" />), and then tell him that he doesn't find anything. Then one other player starts specifically enumerating where his PC searches the room, and when he says &quot;I look under the rug for a concealed or secret trapdoor&quot;, I tell him he finds one (no die roll). My old 1E friend calls out &quot;WTF, look, even though I didn't tell you I was looking under the rug, when I say I search the room, of course I'm looking under the rug&quot;. His perception die roll had not been very good (say, 14 or something).Who's right here? How to handle such a situation? I don't think there's a single answer to those questions. Some players want searching to be a very quick affair and be done with it, while others like to put their minds into exploring the room's every nook and cranny. Some players like to roll dice for searching, others not.So is an auto-finding rogue a benediction or a curse? I think it depends to whom you ask. Those that don't want the die-roll-to-find-stuff option probably don't like the auto-find option either; they probably prefer the description-search option.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Skyscraper, post: 5693877, member: 48518"] This is an interesting point, but I'd probably rewrite it as follows: players who want to [I]find [/I]stuff should play rogues, and players who want to [I]search for[/I] stuff should play fighters or wizards. Heh. I think it depends on how the find stuff skill works. If your find-stuff-rogue arrives in a room, the player states "i search the room for stuff" and the DM just says "you find a secret alcove behind an illusionary wall concealed behind the library shelves", that's one type of game. If the "level" of hidden objects requires even the rogue to be more specific to find such a well-hidden area, then I think the game is more targetted towards description-searching. And then there are the player preferences. I had a player recently, an old friend from an old 1E campaign from 20 years ago, try out a 4E game. He says to me "I search the room" at one point. I have him roll a d20 (I let them do that themselves, screw the meta B-)), and then tell him that he doesn't find anything. Then one other player starts specifically enumerating where his PC searches the room, and when he says "I look under the rug for a concealed or secret trapdoor", I tell him he finds one (no die roll). My old 1E friend calls out "WTF, look, even though I didn't tell you I was looking under the rug, when I say I search the room, [I]of course[/I] I'm looking under the rug". His perception die roll had not been very good (say, 14 or something). Who's right here? How to handle such a situation? I don't think there's a single answer to those questions. Some players want searching to be a very quick affair and be done with it, while others like to put their minds into exploring the room's every nook and cranny. Some players like to roll dice for searching, others not. So is an auto-finding rogue a benediction or a curse? I think it depends to whom you ask. Those that don't want the die-roll-to-find-stuff option probably don't like the auto-find option either; they probably prefer the description-search option. [/QUOTE]

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