Monte's Ghoul Template ??

[BBrendolfus]

Righty

(Shameless Piratecat rippoff)

I'm using a Ghoul Prince as one baddy lieutenant boss. Most of his ghouls and ghasts are just that, but some powerful leaders retain their experience.

Checking out Monte Cook's template they have undead (1/2 or wizards) BAB. Oops, sorry? My ghoul fighting champion is a wuss.

What are my options? I am thinking of poo pooing that and houseruling but will that affect cr?...

 

[Happiest_Sadist]

Of they have class levels, they use that classes BAB, saves, etc. They only have the BAB and saves listed for their generic undead HD.

 

[BBrendolfus]

You have convinced me Happiest_Sadist

Those pcs are gonna get it.

(I saw Piratecat using the undead progression and Monte seemed to back that up - but no matter)

 

[Piratecat]

Of they have class levels, they use that classes BAB, saves, etc. They only have the BAB and saves listed for their generic undead HD.

If you want a rule (as opposed to a house rule), this is incorrect. Annoying, eh?

 

[Blacksad]

If you want a rule (as opposed to a house rule), this is incorrect. Annoying, eh?

If a undead get class level, he doesn't get the normal Bab and saves of that class? I thought that the only thing that changed when an undead took a class was that he gained a d12 for hit dice instead of the standrd HD.

 

[Piratecat]

Nope, even when an undead gets a class level, their hit dice remain d12s and their BAB remain 1/2 of hit dice - at least in several undead templates I've seen, where it explicitly states this. Surprised me, too.

 

[Henrix]

No, looking at the undead templates in MM:

The example vampire in MM has a +11 Slam, which must be +5 BAB (from Ftr5) and +6 (Str 22).

The Ghost has a +6 Incorporeal Touch (+5 BAB (Ftr5), +1 Dex), or a Masterwork Bastard Sword (+5 BAB, +3 Str, +1 Weapon Focus, +1 Masterwork).

 

[BBrendolfus]

Ooh, lucky I wandered back.

I was getting around to doing the stat block too.

Now I was wondering about the d12 hd thing and class saves/bab. Seemed a little cheaty.

Guess I'll have to use a black guard instead .

 

[Henrix]

Even the saves of the Vampire and the Ghost are as the base creature, i.e. as a Ftr5.

(The Lich is harder, as it is an 11th level Wizard. And Wizards have the same BAB and Save progression as Undead.)

I am not saying that all undead templates retain the BAB and Saves of the base creature, but that they do in accordance with the template in question.

The Monte Ghoul/Ghast template uses Undead BAB and base creature saves, for instance, while Tweet's Skeleton and Zombie templates use both undead BAB and Saves.

[Edit]
And the Ghost, Lich and Vampire all use the base creatures saves and BAB. (Though the latter may not be true in the case of the Lich, as it does not have a 'Attack' entry, but states that one should use the character's statistics and special abilities unless changed by the template. Generally it does not matter, unless it is a Lich of a Cleric. )

 

[BBrendolfus]

All nicely confusing but thank you anyway.

I think I will use undead save/hd/bab progession for classless advanced types, such as huge zombies etc...

For classed undead I will use the class save/bab but undead hd(d12).

Now I have assigned this advanced ghoul template as cr+2. Given my generous aproach is +2 fair?

Thanks