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Moon Dog Conversion Help
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<blockquote data-quote="I'm A Banana" data-source="post: 6669716" data-attributes="member: 2067"><p>For reasons that will remain seeeeeecret, I find it necessary to convert a certain Olde Edition critter to 5e: the <em>moon dog</em>. </p><p></p><p>But son, this creature is a <em>mess</em>, so help would be much appreciated!</p><p></p><p>For those of you unfamiliar with the critter:</p><p><a href="http://www.dndclassics.com/product/17005/Monster-Manual-II-1e?term=monster+manual+&it=1" target="_blank">Official 1e Version</a></p><p><a href="http://www.dndclassics.com/product/25928/Book-of-Exalted-Deeds-35?term=book+of+exalted+de&it=1" target="_blank">Official 3e Version</a></p><p><a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/moon-dog" target="_blank">Pathfinder Tome of Horrors version</a></p><p></p><p>I'd include a link to the 2e version, but apparently D&D Classics isn't currently selling the 2e Monstrous Manual, so that's where you can find it if you've got one laying around. The ToH Pathfinder version appears to be OGC, so feel free to take a look at that if you just need the stats. All versions of the critter are pretty similar to each other, in terms of what it can do. </p><p></p><p>There are three major problems I'm wrestling with:</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"> <strong>This creature is a poster child for "a grab bag of Spell-Like Abilities"</strong>. As far as I can tease out, our canine friend has at least 5 different categories of magical powers: healing abilities (the lick-based magic, and also dispelling charms and curses), celestial magic (the howl/bay/bark/whine combo, though also the dispel-magic-and-self ability), detection abilities (evil, illusion, invisibility, traps, magic in general, also generally good senses and double vision), some traveling magic (ethereal, astral), and a suite of illusion spells (change self, darkness, dancing lights, improved invisibility, light, mirror image, nondetection, wall of fog, shadow conjuration, and that protective-shadow ability). As much as I'm interested in a fairly authentic conversion, this seems like way too much going on at once, and at the very least seems <em>hard to run</em>. I want to make this clearer and more straightforward for table-use, ideally while keeping the effect of the abilities largely intact. </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"> <strong>There's a particular problem with <em>Shadow Conjuration</em> / <em>Shades</em></strong> - the idea behind these spells has always been "duplicate any conjuration you want, but suckier if your target disbelieves." These spells and their <em>shadow evocation</em> relatives are dropped from 5e, and I appreciate their droppage. The Moon Dog is making me think about putting them back in (it's the most powerful SLA these critters have, so it should be fairly definitive of an encounter with them), but I'd like to make these abilities more reasonable. My first thought was to make it duplicate only one spell, or a limited list of spells, and maybe have it be a lower level than those spells (letting you get away with having a "more powerful spell than you should" for the spell slot), but that still makes a player have to learn the details of two different spells...perhaps I can make it some sort of metamagic effect or something?</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"> Related to the above: I'm comfortable with the monster being any CR it happens to be, but<strong> conjuration abilities have put me into a rabbit-hole for figuring out how much damage/round this thing puts out at full power</strong>. Like, say it shadow-summons a Coatl: the coatl has the ability to turn into any humanoid or beast (CR 4 or less) - and retains its own statistics with a few exceptions. So now I gotta look through the MM and figure out the Offensive CR of every humanoid and beast of CR 4 or less to get the maximum value to figure out the offensive CR of the moon dog? I'd hope there's an easier way! </li> </ul><p></p><p>I think overall I'm mostly looking at the problem that the moon dog has <em>too much going on</em>, too many options, too many things to do. I'd like to make this simpler, more direct, clearer in what it can do, without necessarily nerfing the creature much/at all. I want them to be powerful celestial shadow-illusion dogs, but I don't want a DM running them to have to stop the game for 15 minutes when it uses <em>shadow conjuration</em>, or to get lost in the creature's Innate Spellcasting list when they should be paying attention to what the PC's are doing. I'm not sure what to cut, or how to streamline. </p><p></p><p>You'll find what I've got right now attached - check out that list of innate spells! Bluh.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="I'm A Banana, post: 6669716, member: 2067"] For reasons that will remain seeeeeecret, I find it necessary to convert a certain Olde Edition critter to 5e: the [I]moon dog[/I]. But son, this creature is a [I]mess[/I], so help would be much appreciated! For those of you unfamiliar with the critter: [URL="http://www.dndclassics.com/product/17005/Monster-Manual-II-1e?term=monster+manual+&it=1"]Official 1e Version[/URL] [URL="http://www.dndclassics.com/product/25928/Book-of-Exalted-Deeds-35?term=book+of+exalted+de&it=1"]Official 3e Version[/URL] [URL="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/moon-dog"]Pathfinder Tome of Horrors version[/URL] I'd include a link to the 2e version, but apparently D&D Classics isn't currently selling the 2e Monstrous Manual, so that's where you can find it if you've got one laying around. The ToH Pathfinder version appears to be OGC, so feel free to take a look at that if you just need the stats. All versions of the critter are pretty similar to each other, in terms of what it can do. There are three major problems I'm wrestling with: [LIST] [*] [B]This creature is a poster child for "a grab bag of Spell-Like Abilities"[/B]. As far as I can tease out, our canine friend has at least 5 different categories of magical powers: healing abilities (the lick-based magic, and also dispelling charms and curses), celestial magic (the howl/bay/bark/whine combo, though also the dispel-magic-and-self ability), detection abilities (evil, illusion, invisibility, traps, magic in general, also generally good senses and double vision), some traveling magic (ethereal, astral), and a suite of illusion spells (change self, darkness, dancing lights, improved invisibility, light, mirror image, nondetection, wall of fog, shadow conjuration, and that protective-shadow ability). As much as I'm interested in a fairly authentic conversion, this seems like way too much going on at once, and at the very least seems [I]hard to run[/I]. I want to make this clearer and more straightforward for table-use, ideally while keeping the effect of the abilities largely intact. [*] [B]There's a particular problem with [I]Shadow Conjuration[/I] / [I]Shades[/I][/B] - the idea behind these spells has always been "duplicate any conjuration you want, but suckier if your target disbelieves." These spells and their [I]shadow evocation[/I] relatives are dropped from 5e, and I appreciate their droppage. The Moon Dog is making me think about putting them back in (it's the most powerful SLA these critters have, so it should be fairly definitive of an encounter with them), but I'd like to make these abilities more reasonable. My first thought was to make it duplicate only one spell, or a limited list of spells, and maybe have it be a lower level than those spells (letting you get away with having a "more powerful spell than you should" for the spell slot), but that still makes a player have to learn the details of two different spells...perhaps I can make it some sort of metamagic effect or something? [*] Related to the above: I'm comfortable with the monster being any CR it happens to be, but[B] conjuration abilities have put me into a rabbit-hole for figuring out how much damage/round this thing puts out at full power[/B]. Like, say it shadow-summons a Coatl: the coatl has the ability to turn into any humanoid or beast (CR 4 or less) - and retains its own statistics with a few exceptions. So now I gotta look through the MM and figure out the Offensive CR of every humanoid and beast of CR 4 or less to get the maximum value to figure out the offensive CR of the moon dog? I'd hope there's an easier way! [/LIST] I think overall I'm mostly looking at the problem that the moon dog has [I]too much going on[/I], too many options, too many things to do. I'd like to make this simpler, more direct, clearer in what it can do, without necessarily nerfing the creature much/at all. I want them to be powerful celestial shadow-illusion dogs, but I don't want a DM running them to have to stop the game for 15 minutes when it uses [I]shadow conjuration[/I], or to get lost in the creature's Innate Spellcasting list when they should be paying attention to what the PC's are doing. I'm not sure what to cut, or how to streamline. You'll find what I've got right now attached - check out that list of innate spells! Bluh. [/QUOTE]
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