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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mirrorrorrim" data-source="post: 9250166" data-attributes="member: 7040132">It's not about optimization. It's about enabling the class fantasy... which is playing the beast you want to play and not sucking because of it. The current design doesn't fulfill any of that. At all. A Moon Druid who prefers a wolf form cannot fight as a wolf at mid to high levels. The stat blocks to support that fantasy don't exist. The UA8 rules recognize that players shouldn't have access to the MM stat blocks (unless the DM wants that headache), by limiting the class to the stat blocks in an appendix. There isn't enough space in the PH to cover 20 levels of Moon Druid forms in an appendix. For it to work, the books would have to offer multiple stat blocks to cover CR 1-6 (20th Druid level divided by 3 is CR6) for every beast, that allow the Moon Druid to scale their basic effectiveness as they gain levels. There are too many beasts in our world, let alone a fantasy world, to have unique stat blocks for all of them. That is too much design space for 1 subclass.Want to wildshape into a panther or a wolf for a level 12 fight? You'll just suck to death. If wildshaping into a form you prefer is just going to get you killed, what decent combat options are available for you to turn into? Don't want to be a dinosaur, or one of like a handful of options at higher levels? Too bad. (That is terrible design.)Also, the Moon Druid is just one subclass on top of a full caster progression class, so it can't be too powerful compared to the other subclasses. Also, Monster Manual stat blocks should NOT be player stat blocks. They serve different purposes. The monster stat blocks need to be robust enough to challenge a group of players (they will likely be buffed in 2024), but those may be too powerful for a player to use.As for the argument against templates, a stat block is a stat block. It gives you stats, no matter what the title or name is. The most important thing is that it works. You imagination fills in the rest. You did mention scaling stat blocks. Monster stat blocks that scale are just even more limited templates. People who are against templates would also be against scaling beast templates. I'm really curious how these non-template Moon Druid players think this is going to work in an actual play. I really want to see someone show me a Moon Druid design progression that will actually work, without using a template. The design has to cover any beast to fulfill the form fantasy, and CRs 1-6 to fulfill basic effectiveness at each of these levels (3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18). And it has to be balanced against other subclasses. The 2014 Moon Druid fails due to power. Ablative hit points are a non-starter.Treantmonk is right in this case, and it has nothing to do with optimization. Merely basic effectiveness.</blockquote>

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