thorny-bot
First Post
Are there any guidelines anywhere as to when monsters / NPC's start to run away? Or is it just left to the DM to use his discretion?
morale for monsters
- Thread starter thorny-bot
- Start date
Wippit Guud
First Post
Easiest thing to do would be to base it on wisdom. The duller the monster's wit, the less likely it'll run away.
But I don't belive there's any actual morale score anymore.
But I don't belive there's any actual morale score anymore.
Durifern
First Post
Personally I wouldn't base it on wisdom. But it's quite helpful when you've got a general idea how it was handled in earlier editions.
For example undead won't run away but intelligent undead are more likely to follow an agenda of their own (e.g. lich, vampire) and therefore will retreat to get back at the players another time.
Constructs have the "license to die" as my former master called it.
Otherwise you have to think how great is the wish of the enemy to kill his opponent. Is it an animal hunting for food, defending it's children, is it a monster killing out of joy or is it a person who was send into battle without the wish to fight at all.
I have to admit that I should ask myself these questions more often when I think of the last time an enemy ran away.
For example undead won't run away but intelligent undead are more likely to follow an agenda of their own (e.g. lich, vampire) and therefore will retreat to get back at the players another time.
Constructs have the "license to die" as my former master called it.
Otherwise you have to think how great is the wish of the enemy to kill his opponent. Is it an animal hunting for food, defending it's children, is it a monster killing out of joy or is it a person who was send into battle without the wish to fight at all.
I have to admit that I should ask myself these questions more often when I think of the last time an enemy ran away.
Particle_Man
Explorer
Nostalgia time...
Basic D&D gave every monster a morale score that would be rolled twice in combat, I think.
a) When the leader died.
b) When half the forces (or was it half your hit points?) were gone.
The leader gave a morale bonus, while alive.
And, the way it was done, mindless undead never, ever, failed their morale checks.
Basic D&D gave every monster a morale score that would be rolled twice in combat, I think.
a) When the leader died.
b) When half the forces (or was it half your hit points?) were gone.
The leader gave a morale bonus, while alive.
And, the way it was done, mindless undead never, ever, failed their morale checks.
thorny-bot
First Post
Thanks for your timely responses.
Wippit: Simple and actually helpful to me.
Durifern: You make a lot of sense here. A spot on response to my grey-matter. Thanks.
Particle_Man: I guess this is why I asked the question in the first place. Thinking back... maybe all those tables of morale modifiers were a bit too much. Too much wargaming and not enough role-playing by the GM. It wont do me any harm to dig the old books out of the loft!
Probably what I should do (and what I would encourage would-be scenario writers to do) is add a 'morale' line in any combat tactics sections. If monster gets walloped (or whatever) to xx extent it uses any possible resources to flee, bargain for life, etc, etc. This means doing a bit of Durifern thinking, but I like that idea.
Wippit: Simple and actually helpful to me.
Durifern: You make a lot of sense here. A spot on response to my grey-matter. Thanks.
Particle_Man: I guess this is why I asked the question in the first place. Thinking back... maybe all those tables of morale modifiers were a bit too much. Too much wargaming and not enough role-playing by the GM. It wont do me any harm to dig the old books out of the loft!
Probably what I should do (and what I would encourage would-be scenario writers to do) is add a 'morale' line in any combat tactics sections. If monster gets walloped (or whatever) to xx extent it uses any possible resources to flee, bargain for life, etc, etc. This means doing a bit of Durifern thinking, but I like that idea.
Planesdragon
First Post
thorny-bot said:
I have some, bad, morale guidelines on my 'site. Going to re-work them one of these days.
In a nutshell...
Whenever the monsters might run away--when an ally or leader goes down, when powerful magic is used against them, etc.--make a Fortitude Save, DC 10 + 1/2 opponent's ECL. (For PCs, this is "average level" * (number of PCs) / 4)
I considered making a seperate morale score, but it's just too much work for too little benefit.
Fortitude Save is used because it's the creature keeping their "fight or flight" reflex on "fight" instead of "flight." Plus is lets combat-heavy characters stand a bit better.
(Psi)SeveredHead
Adventurer
IMC the enemy runs away when he's losing. There are no hard and fast rules ... it took some experience for me to realize when enemies have to flee. (Usually they didn't run away until it was too late before I learned "the proper moment".)
Even a wounded beast might run away, though some animals will fight to the death if injured enough.
Mindless undead won't run away, but mindless vermin may do so, depending on normal behavior patterns.
I think putting morale back into the game is a bad idea.
Even a wounded beast might run away, though some animals will fight to the death if injured enough.
Mindless undead won't run away, but mindless vermin may do so, depending on normal behavior patterns.
I think putting morale back into the game is a bad idea.
thorny-bot
First Post
(Psi)SeveredHead : I think you're main point here is the right way to go. The difficulty is, as you note, judging 'the best moment'. I usually find my monsters have stayed a round or two too long and fleeing means getting hacked apart.
As Durifern suggested earlier, thinking about why the 'enemy' is there in the first place and how much he wants to risk his life, is probably going to be key to my approach. Given that as my starting point then I can apply your thoughts also, by which I mean, if I am an intelligent monster/NPC I may well plan my defence/retreat strategy before my attack - and flee when appropriate. If I'm a dumb critter then I'll turn and run when it hurts (and probably die) say 75% damage.
Planesdragon : Your fortitude save makes a lot of sense and I think my game will benefit by putting together some 'simple rules' to help me make the decision of 'the best moment' - when my encounter morale guidelines are fulfilled, make a fortitude check (maybe with some mods) and see if the bad guys run this round, or maybe risk staying one last.......
Thanks...
As Durifern suggested earlier, thinking about why the 'enemy' is there in the first place and how much he wants to risk his life, is probably going to be key to my approach. Given that as my starting point then I can apply your thoughts also, by which I mean, if I am an intelligent monster/NPC I may well plan my defence/retreat strategy before my attack - and flee when appropriate. If I'm a dumb critter then I'll turn and run when it hurts (and probably die) say 75% damage.
Planesdragon : Your fortitude save makes a lot of sense and I think my game will benefit by putting together some 'simple rules' to help me make the decision of 'the best moment' - when my encounter morale guidelines are fulfilled, make a fortitude check (maybe with some mods) and see if the bad guys run this round, or maybe risk staying one last.......
Thanks...
Tonguez
A suffusion of yellow
thorny-bot said:
Personally I use WILL save rather than Fort because Flight/Fight is an Instinct and resisting instinct an act of Will (although Planesdragons point about High Fort Combat Class is valid too)
Me I set a 'minimum HP' for the encounter (so a creature hunting might be set at 75% of HP, a mother defending her young at 10%) If the creature gets down to the HP minimum it will break and run unless it makes a will save (DC 10+opponents CR)and stays fighting (eg a Girallon at 58 hp will break at 43 hp if out hunting, or 5 hp if defending its young.)
Oher factors like Leader killed, a critical hit scored or powerful magic also invokes a will save and also gives modifiers to the save...
