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<blockquote data-quote="ValhallaGH" data-source="post: 5113094" data-attributes="member: 41187">Granted.&nbsp; But my point of &quot;people die as a direct result of shoplifting and it's associated effects&quot; is in no way invalidated.&nbsp; Does all shoplifting kill?&nbsp; No.Do all gunshot wounds to the head kill?&nbsp; No.And shoplifting isn't &quot;hugely immoral&quot; (even in WoD).&nbsp; It's petty theft.&quot;petty - of lesser or secondary importance, merit, etc.; minor&quot;&quot;theft - the act of stealing; the wrongful taking and carrying away of the personal goods or property of another; larceny&quot;So, a &quot;good&quot; person, one that obeys the laws and standards of their community, respects others and their property, and assumes that stuff belongs to people and not a fictional entity (corporations are fictitious, if legal), doesn't want to steal from others.&nbsp; If forced into it, they may loosen their moral code, causing them to become meaner, more selfish, and more tolerant of similar behavior.While WoD starting morality may be 7, they want most PCs to be around a 5 or a 4, &quot;because it creates a more dramatic story&quot;.&nbsp; Your typical adventurer engages, regularly, in mass property damage and (often fatal) injury to others, potentially lowering their morality to 3.Normal people usually don't engage in grand theft, but most engage in petty theft and similar levels of illegal activity with surprising regularity, placing them around a morality of 6.Just sitting in a coffee shop, listening to random conversations for a few hours will pretty quickly give you a sad view of most people's morality.&nbsp; (Or work in / talk to&nbsp; Convenience store clerks.&nbsp; It's scary how many people walk in each day asking, one way or another, if the store sells crack pipes.&nbsp; It's scarier how many people present themselves as models of terrible parents / guardians.)Where WoD fails miserably is determining when Derangement happens.&nbsp; Their system is actually pretty good for if it happens (check out the effects of combat stress on veterans; no matter how strong willed you are, exposure to certain events screws up your head), but the when is terrible.&nbsp; What you see and experience plays a big roll in how messed up you get.&nbsp; What you do is even more important, but what you see can be a major issue (for those that need evidence, research mental disorders among law enforcement, where most only witness the terrible things people do to each other).</blockquote>

[QUOTE="ValhallaGH, post: 5113094, member: 41187"] Granted. But my point of "people die as a direct result of shoplifting and it's associated effects" is in no way invalidated. Does all shoplifting kill? No. Do all gunshot wounds to the head kill? No. And shoplifting isn't "hugely immoral" (even in WoD). It's petty theft. "petty - of lesser or secondary importance, merit, etc.; minor" "theft - the act of stealing; the wrongful taking and carrying away of the personal goods or property of another; larceny" So, a "good" person, one that obeys the laws and standards of their community, respects others and their property, and assumes that stuff belongs to people and not a fictional entity (corporations are fictitious, if legal), doesn't want to steal from others. If forced into it, they may loosen their moral code, causing them to become meaner, more selfish, and more tolerant of similar behavior. While WoD starting morality may be 7, they [I]want[/I] most PCs to be around a 5 or a 4, "because it creates a more dramatic story". Your typical adventurer engages, regularly, in mass property damage and (often fatal) injury to others, potentially lowering their morality to 3. Normal people usually don't engage in grand theft, but most engage in petty theft and similar levels of illegal activity with surprising regularity, placing them around a morality of 6. Just sitting in a coffee shop, listening to random conversations for a few hours will pretty quickly give you a sad view of most people's morality. (Or work in / talk to Convenience store clerks. It's scary how many people walk in each day asking, one way or another, if the store sells crack pipes. It's scarier how many people present themselves as models of terrible parents / guardians.) Where WoD fails miserably is determining when Derangement happens. Their system is actually pretty good for if it happens (check out the effects of combat stress on veterans; no matter how strong willed you are, exposure to certain events screws up your head), but the [I]when[/I] is terrible. What you see and experience plays a big roll in how messed up you get. What you do is even more important, but what you see can be a major issue (for those that need evidence, research mental disorders among law enforcement, where most only witness the terrible things people do to each other). [/QUOTE]

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