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<blockquote data-quote="Kerrick" data-source="post: 4605426" data-attributes="member: 4722">Right, I was looking at that. Low saves aren't all that high... but I don't know.That's what I meant - if you take it at L5, you're not going to get screwed because it doesn't scale.Now that could work. I did something similar with Toughness - you get +2 hit points, +1/level (retroactive). I boosted the low save to top out at +8 at L20, so I'd have to drop this bonus, but I think it would work well if you use the standard poor saves.In this case, you should probably go with DC 10 + 1/2 caster level + spell level or stat mod (both variations are popular, but I've found spell level scales with saves better). If you use this with +1 feat/3 levels, a +1 stacking bonus would probably work. +2 would probably be too much.If you use this with +1 feat/2 levels, I think both would be too powerful - a wizard would have 14 feats (11 from levels, 4 bonus); we can assume he'll dump 5-6 of those into SF, which gives him a +5 or +10 bonus at L20. His L9 spells would be DC 10 + 10 + 9 + 5 = 34; a CR 20 creature's average saves are only around +20.I was thinking about this last night, and I think that you can either a) give the characters more feats (1/2 levels) or b) you can give them more class abilities, but you shouldn't do both. This is why the Pathfinder characters are so overpowered - they get loads of cool abilities AND more feats. I could be wrong, of course, but I think I'll stick with the normal feat progression for the time being, but let things like Spell Focus stack (at +1).</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Kerrick, post: 4605426, member: 4722"] Right, I was looking at that. Low saves aren't all that high... but I don't know. That's what I meant - if you take it at L5, you're not going to get screwed because it doesn't scale. Now that could work. I did something similar with Toughness - you get +2 hit points, +1/level (retroactive). I boosted the low save to top out at +8 at L20, so I'd have to drop this bonus, but I think it would work well if you use the standard poor saves. In this case, you should probably go with DC 10 + 1/2 caster level + spell level or stat mod (both variations are popular, but I've found spell level scales with saves better). If you use this with +1 feat/3 levels, a +1 stacking bonus would probably work. +2 would probably be too much. If you use this with +1 feat/2 levels, I think both would be too powerful - a wizard would have 14 feats (11 from levels, 4 bonus); we can assume he'll dump 5-6 of those into SF, which gives him a +5 or +10 bonus at L20. His L9 spells would be DC 10 + 10 + 9 + 5 = 34; a CR 20 creature's average saves are only around +20. I was thinking about this last night, and I think that you can either a) give the characters more feats (1/2 levels) or b) you can give them more class abilities, but you shouldn't do both. This is why the Pathfinder characters are so overpowered - they get loads of cool abilities AND more feats. I could be wrong, of course, but I think I'll stick with the normal feat progression for the time being, but let things like Spell Focus stack (at +1). [/QUOTE]

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