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<blockquote data-quote="JoelF" data-source="post: 3929831" data-attributes="member: 8829"><p>I don't think save or die is the biggest problem with fighting monsters that are too tough for you.&nbsp; Instead I think it's the abundance of improved grab, grappling monsters.&nbsp; Sure a save or die monster type can kill a few party members in the first two rounds, but once the party decides to run, they can.&nbsp; The huge sized +25 grapple bonus monster on the other hand makes the party unable to run away, since 2 of them are in it's tentacles.&nbsp; Most PCs in my experience are a lot more likely to run with a few allies dead than if they're still alive.&nbsp; The party will try to rescue the grappled and living PCs, which can result in a TPK a lot easier than the save or die monster types.&nbsp; I also think that the save or die being too powerful is somewhat of a myth - if you change them to abilities that do lots of damage (like a breath weapon) a monster that's a strong challenge for the party can still result in save or die - if you fail your reflex save (or if it hits your reflex, now), the hp damage can still kill several party members, especailly low Con and/or low hp types like wizards, etc.</p></blockquote><p></p>

[QUOTE="JoelF, post: 3929831, member: 8829"] I don't think save or die is the biggest problem with fighting monsters that are too tough for you. Instead I think it's the abundance of improved grab, grappling monsters. Sure a save or die monster type can kill a few party members in the first two rounds, but once the party decides to run, they can. The huge sized +25 grapple bonus monster on the other hand makes the party unable to run away, since 2 of them are in it's tentacles. Most PCs in my experience are a lot more likely to run with a few allies dead than if they're still alive. The party will try to rescue the grappled and living PCs, which can result in a TPK a lot easier than the save or die monster types. I also think that the save or die being too powerful is somewhat of a myth - if you change them to abilities that do lots of damage (like a breath weapon) a monster that's a strong challenge for the party can still result in save or die - if you fail your reflex save (or if it hits your reflex, now), the hp damage can still kill several party members, especailly low Con and/or low hp types like wizards, etc. [/QUOTE]

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