more hp = more CR, less hp = less CR?

[Phlebas]

Although i'm sticking with 3,5e, i have been looking at some 4e concepts to see what is worth 'appropriating' for my current games

one thing that struck me was the way that 4e messed around with monster hp to create solo, elite minions etc. now there's no reason why that couldn't be done in 3,5e quite simpy by using the full range of the HD

so my idea is to use elite monsters (max hp's), normal (average hp's) and grunts (minimum hp's) but i was wondering what would be a fair CR adjustment for this?

using CR +2 for elites.-2 for grunts seemed a good place to start, but has anyone else played around with hp's in this way?

 

[Runestar]

+2 cr is definitely way too high. It is basically suggesting that a creature with full hp is the equivalent of 2 normal creatures. Even +1 cr may be too generous, because racial con bonuses tend to make up a larger bulk of a monster's total hp than racial HD, which would remain unchanged under your rule.

Take for example a titan. It has 370hp, of which 280 comes from con, while 90 comes from averaging its 20 outsider HD. Maxing out those HD gives it just 440hp, or 70 extra hp. This may let it last just 1 extra round. Barely enough to justify an increase in cr. Especially when you realize than a properly built party should have no problems whittling though those hp in 1 round. I would take two 370hp titans over a 440hp titan anyday.

I have run encounters where I rolled hp for my monsters to add some variety to combat, but from experience, the impact is really very minimal. You can give ad-hoc xp bonuses depending on how significant you feel the gain/loss of hp is, but in general, I do not feel it is worth the effort.

 

[meomwt]

MonsterForge is a great utility for enhancing monsters. Up their Hit Dice, and it will allow you to increase Abilities, Skills, Feats, etc., to improve the Monster.

Pump 'em up enough HD and their CR rises too

Enjoy!

 

[Phlebas]

+2 cr is definitely way too high. It is basically suggesting that a creature with full hp is the equivalent of 2 normal creatures. Even +1 cr may be too generous, because racial con bonuses tend to make up a larger bulk of a monster's total hp than racial HD, which would remain unchanged under your rule.

Take for example a titan. It has 370hp, of which 280 comes from con, while 90 comes from averaging its 20 outsider HD. Maxing out those HD gives it just 440hp, or 70 extra hp. This may let it last just 1 extra round. Barely enough to justify an increase in cr. Especially when you realize than a properly built party should have no problems whittling though those hp in 1 round. I would take two 370hp titans over a 440hp titan anyday. ....

hmm, hadn't considered the CON element - was working on doubling hp = 2 x monsters = +2CR but like you say HD doesn't always have the same effect on the total depending on the CON - may be something i'll have to adjust on an ad hoc basis, and presumably the same for min hp per HD as well

presumably

 

[Phlebas]

MonsterForge is a great utility for enhancing monsters. Up their Hit Dice, and it will allow you to increase Abilities, Skills, Feats, etc., to improve the Monster.

Pump 'em up enough HD and their CR rises too

Enjoy!

Thanks for link, will come in handy, but was actually trying to avoid advancing the monster, just using the range within the hit dice to adjust total hp

 

[Nonlethal Force]

Another thing to consider is that in 3.x (at least) the great commodity in combat is actions. Yes, adding HP will increase longevity and therefore increase actions. But as the post above by Runestar points out, actions don't rise as efficiently as HP do.

For example, take any creature at any HP. Given that value of HP, a DM can assume that the monster will stay around for an average of X rounds. (Perhaps more or less, depending on die rolls of course) What a DM needs to realize is that doubling the number of creatures typically increases a CR by 2. If that's true, then a CR increase of 2 roughly translates into 2X amount of actions per combat. {This is a bit of an underestimate, normally} So, you really need to ask yourself how many XP are needed to keep the creature around for twice as long - in order to double the amount of actions possible.

Just one way of looking atthe question at hand.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Another thing to consider is that in 3.x (at least) the great commodity in combat is actions. Yes, adding HP will increase longevity and therefore increase actions. But as the post above by Runestar points out, actions don't rise as efficiently as HP do.

Very good post, NF-- QFE.

Also remember that as CR increases, "Save or Die" effects are more prevalent, so in many cases increased hit points are actually less useful than they were at the low levels/CRs.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Increasing a monster's hp and nothing else about it also is basically shoving a pitchfork up the a@@ of an evocation direct damage dealing mage compared to the already more powerful battlefield controller, just to add on to what NF and WR have wisely said.

I find damage dealing, AC, SR, saves, and attack bonus much better indicators of challenge than just a stack of hp. If the monster has 1000 hp, but needs a 20 to hit the PCs, has no spell defenses, and does d6 +1 damage, it's not much of a challenge, despite the hp. Add in low AC, and the Pouncing Leap Attacking Shock Trooper Barbarian can hew through all that health like nothing anyway. Similarly, if a monster has attacks that can easily hit and kill a PC in one strike, it doesn't matter what it's hp is, it deserves a certain level of CR automatically. Otherwise, initiative basically becomes a game of Russian roullette .

 

[Jhaelen]

so my idea is to use elite monsters (max hp's), normal (average hp's) and grunts (minimum hp's) but i was wondering what would be a fair CR adjustment for this?

using CR +2 for elites.-2 for grunts seemed a good place to start, but has anyone else played around with hp's in this way?

As others have already mentioned, adjusting HP without making any other changes doesn't always make encountering a creature any harder.

Since you seem to have the 4E DMG available, I'd recommend looking at the monster templates for inspiration. Each of them adds several powers and resistances to a monster.
Also, don't forget that Elite monsters get an action point to get a second standard action once per encounter.
In 3E you should give an Elite monster some abilities that can be used as swift or immediate actions.
If you're playing at levels where save-or-die spells are commonly used, you may also consider increasing the monster's saving throws.

Basically, I'd design one or more 'Elite'-templates for 3E that grant a +2 to CR.

 

[Phlebas]

Another thing to consider is that in 3.x (at least) the great commodity in combat is actions. Yes, adding HP will increase longevity and therefore increase actions. But as the post above by Runestar points out, actions don't rise as efficiently as HP do.

For example, take any creature at any HP. Given that value of HP, a DM can assume that the monster will stay around for an average of X rounds. (Perhaps more or less, depending on die rolls of course) What a DM needs to realize is that doubling the number of creatures typically increases a CR by 2. If that's true, then a CR increase of 2 roughly translates into 2X amount of actions per combat. {This is a bit of an underestimate, normally} So, you really need to ask yourself how many XP are needed to keep the creature around for twice as long - in order to double the amount of actions possible.

Just one way of looking atthe question at hand.

That is a very good way of looking at it - even if i double the survivability and hence the actions of the monster, it still doesn't replicate the effect of paired attacks. I'm pretty much convinced that CR +1 would be an appropriate baseline for maxing out the HP's. and in some cases maybe even less than that

Increasing a monster's hp and nothing else about it also is basically shoving a pitchfork up the a@@ of an evocation direct damage dealing mage compared to the already more powerful battlefield controller, just to add on to what NF and WR have wisely said.

I find damage dealing, AC, SR, saves, and attack bonus much better indicators of challenge than just a stack of hp. If the monster has 1000 hp, but needs a 20 to hit the PCs, has no spell defenses, and does d6 +1 damage, it's not much of a challenge, despite the hp. Add in low AC, and the Pouncing Leap Attacking Shock Trooper Barbarian can hew through all that health like nothing anyway. Similarly, if a monster has attacks that can easily hit and kill a PC in one strike, it doesn't matter what it's hp is, it deserves a certain level of CR automatically. Otherwise, initiative basically becomes a game of Russian roullette .

Fair points all, just that in my game, which is a low magic silver standard game (1/10 of treasure) thats just hit level 12, I basically want beasties without huge number of save or die / megadeath attacks (ie slightly lower CR) but with some survivability (ie more hp's) to give the PC's an appropriate challenge. And for my next campaign which is likely to be pathfinder based I wanted some way to adjust the challenge as I went along

As others have already mentioned, adjusting HP without making any other changes doesn't always make encountering a creature any harder.

Since you seem to have the 4E DMG available, I'd recommend looking at the monster templates for inspiration. Each of them adds several powers and resistances to a monster.
Also, don't forget that Elite monsters get an action point to get a second standard action once per encounter.
In 3E you should give an Elite monster some abilities that can be used as swift or immediate actions.
If you're playing at levels where save-or-die spells are commonly used, you may also consider increasing the monster's saving throws.

Basically, I'd design one or more 'Elite'-templates for 3E that grant a +2 to CR.

I don't actually have the 4E books - I just read up on the web and browsed a freinds set for ideas. Although I'm sure a elite template wouldn't be too difficult (though might need elite melee, elite spellcaster, elite sneak) i'm basically trying to avoid templates and try to keep things simple.

(wow multiquote function sure makes posts like this quicker! )