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Message: <blockquote data-quote="takyris" data-source="post: 812612" data-attributes="member: 5171">Yeoman: Bummer.  I knew that DAMAGE had to be done via brawl or CMA, but I didn't think that the AoO-provoking was dependent.  That's unfortunate and somewhat lame.  Heck, that makes a lot of this thread more valid, if there's no way for a Brawler to NOT provoke an AoO.Mistwell: Complete Agreement.  I know that they named stuff they way that they did for flavor text, but too many times, people are looing at the titles and taking things based on those titles, rather than on the actual effects.I think that this is about half the fault of the designers, for not naming things in a less misunderstandable way (and not putting a paragraph or two more about flavor text and description), and about half the fault of the players, for not being able to look past names.Since it's a bit too late to change the names of the feats, I'm attacking the Players angle more strongly -- like in this case the, "My Boxer doesn't work well with Brawl, so I'll make up new feats that make him just as strong as a martial artist!", when in fact a Boxer IS a martial artist -- just a different flavor-text of one (Heck, there was a General Thread awhile back where all these boxers irritatedly insisted that they were martial artists and that they should be treated exactly like other martial artists in terms of respect and applicability and all that.  Here's their chance to shine!).JPL wrote:Um... because the ability to knock someone out quickly and easily with little permanent harm is tied into pressure points, and learning about ways to make pinpoint strikes more effective with a light weapon is a logical extension of that same pressure-point theory?Have you actually practiced any martial art?  I intend no offense.  I'm just not sure if you're tied in really strongly to the flavor-text feat-names, or if you're operating under incorrect assumptions about the martial arts.Heck, I know nothing about guns, and I'm a decidedly average driver -- which is why I don't try to add new gun feats or change the driving rules.  I submit that Combat Martial Arts can cover that.  Just because it's a fighting style that you taught yourself by fighting to survive on the streets doesn't mean it's less valid than any other martial art.  Originally, martial arts were created by people making stuff up after thinking about how their last fights went.  Just say that the guy fights with a different style -- make the flavor text different.  Choose feats that are in keeping with what you see as his style.  There's no reason to make new feats for what you want to do.I also submit that Brawl is NOT quick-and-dirty no-frills fighting.  Because, according to the actual rules, that's not what it actually does.  Trying to make it do that is like looking at Endurance and deciding that it should also give you more hit points, because hit points are how you Endure damage in d20 Modern.  You're getting hung up on the name.Of course he could.  Your "Brawler" has  CMA, Improved CMA, and Advanced CMA, and likely has levels in Soldier (if he's fought as a team with others) and/or Martial Artist.  He doesn't even need the Brawl Feat -- a Martial Artist doing 1d10 damage plus strength bonuses and critical stuff can choose to do nonlethal damage, add a flying kick, and be well over the Massive Damage Threshold of most people.  Ta-dah.  I've just made a street-trained knockout specialist, and I didn't even use Brawl or add new feats.  The "black belt" you describe is likely a Strong3 with one or two martial arts feats.  Nowhere in the description of the Martial Arts feats does it say anything about requiring formal training in a school where you wear gis or hakamas and practice bowing.  You're confusing game rules and flavor text.-Tacky</blockquote>

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