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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 6109272" data-attributes="member: 4937">Well, first of all, I think you are generally on the right path, but you aren't really exploring anything new.   I'd encourage you to look up essays on "D&D E6", "Gandalf was a 6th level Wizard", and "D&D Calibrating your Expectations".   I think you'll find that this has all been covered in some depth.My game lies somewhere between gritty and high fantasy, with influences from Tolkien, Brothers Grimm, Lovecraft, and Gygax.There are my assumptions:1) The PC's have an elite stat array (32 point buy by 3e standards), and virtually no one else in the world has that degree of native capability.  In fact, typically the only NPC I ever build with that same point buy is the BBEG.  Most NPCs regardless of level or role in the society are assumed to have 15-20 point buy.  Only a few NPCs occupying roles of mentor, miniboss, foil, or ally will have 21-25 point by builds.2) The PC's are advantaged characters having important destinies and most NPCs just don't.  In my game, there are 'advantages' and 'disadvantages'.  PC's begin with one free advantage that they don't have to pay for.   They also begin with a resource called 'destiny points'.  Again, generally only the BBEG will be built as a peer of the PCs in this regard.  3) The PC's are advantaged materially compared to NPCs.  The PCs begin play with about 4 months wages invested gear that is helpful in heroic situations.  Most NPCs can't even save up 4 months wages, and their gear is heavily invested in overcoming mundane challenges (raising a family, running a business, providing themselves shelter and comforts, etc.).   This disparity quickly widens as the PC's overcome heroic challenges and acquire resources.  Compared to even high level NPCs, the PC's are just walking arsenals.  By high level, the PC's will be wearing or carrying the price of a small kingdom in gear - even in a game that is stingy with gear like mine.   Spellcasters likewise won't typically memorize spells that prepare them mainly for combat (though many will keep one or two just in case) but which aid with research, or which can be sold easily, or which aid in a craft, or which help them overcome mundane problems like cooking a dinner, staying dry in the rain, or cleaning their domecile.  4) The PC's are generally much younger than NPCs of similar level, as a result of their greater native potential and destiny.  Even from a low level, NPCs will be impressed by the PCs - if only as prodigies.  Even to the extent that a 6th or 9th level character is not uncommon in the world, those characters will be senior citizens at the ends of their lives, and not youths at the beginning of theirs.  Thus, they are really unsuited to the rigors facing the heros.  That 6th level wizard or cleric may be in their 60's or 70's, with DEX, CON, and STR well below 8 and having perhaps only 6 h.p.  Such NPCs will be amazed to find a vigorous youth of 18 or 25 mastering spells that have taken them a life time of study.5) The PC's place greater focus on heroic challenges than similar NPCs.  Many NPCs will have spent some time in their lives facing heroic obstacles - war, exploration, and adventure.  But that has only been one episode in a lengthy life.  So even though they might have some PC classes, a good portion of their levels will be in non-NPC classes.  That Hedge Wizard or Sage or Court Magician might be 6th or 9th level overall, but 2 or 3 of those levels might be Expert.In general, this is the expected progression for NPCs0th level: Children1st level: Youths, idle pampered rich, handicapped individuals2nd level: Mature skilled individuals with several years of experience.3rd level: True experts, often of at least middle age, with decades of experience.  Not uncommon, but note the disadvantages compared to PCs, who in many areas will exceed their ability even at 1st level. 4th level: True masters, highly respected in their field or community.5th level: The leading citizens of a community, and often influential outside of their community. 6th level: Leading citizens nationally, often aged and nearing the ends of their careers.  Less than 1 in a 1000 NPCs are of this level.   Highest level that probably corresponds to real individuals.7th-8th level: As 6th, but this are the real movers and shakers at a national level.  Some will be known at a regional level.9th-10th level: People of regional renown, fame, or infamy.  Anybody who is any body will have heard of these people at least by rumor.  Within their trade, everyone that is an expert in the trade has heard of these people for hundreds of miles around.  These peoples names open doors in welcome or slam them in fear.  The real world equivalents of these people are legendary or mythical - Miyamoto Musashi, Cyranos de Bergerac, Alexander the Great, etc.11th level and up: Extremely rare in NPCs.  People of world renown.15th level and up: Only (potentialy) the PCs themselves, the BBEG that directly opposes them, or the few other extant individuals of historical reknown - legendary founding kings, immortal rulers, legendary wizards, noted heirarchs of great religions, etc.However, just because the PCs are greatly advantaged compared to just about every NPC, doesn't mean that they are necessarily better in everything than ordinary people.   Typically, it requires a pretty high level PC to excel an NPC in the tasks of ordinary living.Consider the very best local village blacksmith, and the PC finds himself with the need to shod a horse or forge a new masterwork weapon.The village blacksmith is 3rd level, with a 12 Int, maximum ranks in the related craft skills, masterwork tools, an apprentice, and at least 3 feats all of which relate to the ordinary application of his skills.  As you note, this means that the blacksmith's craft check could easily be +16.   It's highly unlikely that even a high level PC will be able to best that skill unless he set out with the desire to be among his other abilities a master smith.  And even if he did, it might be some time before he bests that 6th level smith of regional renown whom every smith in the trade speaks reverantly toward.   Likewise if it comes to haggling with a merchant, the average merchant is well equipped in appraisal, bluff, diplomacy, and sense motive to come out on top in such affairs.  The PCs may be easily able to defeat ordinary people in combat, but they won't necessarily easily be able to take advantage of them and to a certain extent even high level PCs may rely on ordinary people to take care of ordinary affairs in a reliable manner.So, how to you make your game 'more gritty' or set your campaign in something more like the 'real world'?  Well, you set your PC's abilities and expectations closer to those of the NPCs in one or more fashions.  Depending on how gritty you wanted to be this could mean lower point buys (21 point by for example), level caps (6, 8, and 10 are popular choices), forcing players to begin play with an NPC class, or reducing the XP rewards from challenges.   I would strongly advise that everyone be on board for that before trying to force it on players.  And also I suggest that the lower you set the bar for PCs, the rarer you make exceptional NPCs.   My discussion above assumes PCs will exceed 6th level.   If I didn't assume that, then I might make 1st level characters the standard for mature experienced individuals, and 2nd level the standard of community leaders.</blockquote>

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