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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Unwise" data-source="post: 5765490" data-attributes="member: 98008">I had interesting experiences with this where it kind of backfired on me as a GM. 1) The idea was that the bad guy would steal away the NPC in front of the PCs. They had no hope of winning, but they all loved the NPC so much they could not bear to see her hurt even if it meant their death. After the TPK they felt they had done the right thing as they could not have lived with themselves if they had let her get taken. I had misjudged their resolve and the amount of tools they had to slow the villian and chase him. 2) I misjudged just how much they hated a particular bad guy. He set off a trap, a classic "this whole place is coming down" as he goes to make his escape. The party all agree tha they will stop him fleeing rather than flee themsleves. To the villians shock and horror this plans unravel as the PCs just throw themselves at him with grab attacks. They do no damage but hold him there until the roof comes down killing them all. In hindsight, they won that campaign. Just 15 levels before I intende them to. P.S. In my defence as a GM, my players characters are always a bunch of complete pricks. They are rude to everyone, lie, cheat and steal. It is easy to forget that when push comes to shove they are very heroic and self sacrificing.</blockquote>