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Most frustrating quirk of 5E?
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<blockquote data-quote="Mepher" data-source="post: 7542359" data-attributes="member: 61277"><p>The point is that all classes have comparable fighting skill. In older editions your to hit was only affected by your STR modifier. Wizards usually put INT as their primary stat for # of spells and % chance to learn and Dexterity for the AC bonus. Now Wizards can put their main stats in INT for their Spell Save and Spell attack bonuses and Dexterity for their AC and Melee attack bonuses. You can deny it if you want but the wizard gets the same bonuses as a fighter does to attack. He just gets them from INT and DEX.</p><p></p><p>As for going back to 3rd edition rules, that seems to be the go-to argument here. I never moved to 3.0/3.5/4.0 because of the rule and power creep. Anytime I compare editions its between 1E/2E and 5E. 5E was a response to the creep in later editions but in the process they took away much of what made AD&D so great. While I am currently running a 5E campaign, I find the game a bit flat when it comes to the "flavor" of original D&D. I know that it's popularity comes from the fact that everyone gets to do anything they want, all of the time. It wont take long to read these forums and realize that the current crop of players cannot fathom being told no when it comes to any type of player option. We get to hear endlessly about player agency and how dare anyone take that away from them. Things that made the world exciting and dangerous, such as lighting and darkness have now been trivialized by vision and cantrips. Things such as character advancement has been equalized so everyone gets that same warm fuzzy feeling all of the time. Level progression is equal, everyone gets to attack every round no matter what. </p><p></p><p>Then you have simple things like Identify. In old editions if you didn't have a Wizard with the identify spell then identifying items might turn into a whole adventure on it's own. Never once in 30 years DMing did anyone ever complain to me about this mechanic. It was always a chance for more roleplaying. They might drag some mythical weapon out of a dungeon and take it back to their church. They send them on some quest to find out information about the weapon leading them to the discovery of it's ancient powers. While you can do exactly the same thing in 5E, the current crop of players might have a problem with that. 5E designers might still embrace Rule 0 - "Rules are nothing but guidelines", the average newer player doesn't. It's apparent with how much everyone loses their crap anytime someone wants to change rules to their liking. Everytime I post here I brace for impact when responses start coming in. Somehow what I do with my group seems to affect other's fun, or so they think. The good thing is that my group thinks like I do. We grew up playing other editions and can see the differences, good and bad. I do like some parts of 5E but I am not sure if it's enough to keep me here in the long run.</p><p></p><p>My favorite quote from Gary Gygax that summarizes the game for me will goes so much against the current thinking of RPGs. I spend a minimum of 10x the amount of time working on my campaign that I run for my players than all of my players do combined outside of game. In fact, like most players they for the most part forget about this game outside of the game session. We have a discord server and we chat in it daily but as for real game "work" the players don't have much to do other than maybe update their character between sessions if the leveled or something. With that in mind I have always told my players that if any player chooses to actively derail something I have spent countless hours working on then they don't belong in my game. That isn't to say the players make unexpected choices, I mean a player actively trying to derail my game for the sake of their own enjoyment over others.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>To me that is what D&D is about. The DM provides a great world for the players to explore. It's not designed to coddle the players or give them what they want. It's a big dangerous world and that kill them at a moments notice but there is also great rewards to be had. If the players play smart, roleplay well, and are willing to risk it all it can be rewarding. I think most of that is lost these days. Gary says that the game is mastered by the DM, hence the title Dungeon Master. Today if you ask the average group they look at the DM more as the story teller and the players are the real masters of the game. Everyone loves to throw around that idea of player agency but how about DM agency. There are so many generic checks in 5E that many players simply ask to make checks anytime they want to do something. You can see it on the flood of 5E streams out there. I feel for the "new" DM out there today because the game teaches you to observe a bunch of dice rolls rather than adjucate a scenario. Sure there are some great DMs out there running these streams but there are also some that do nothing other than tell a story and ask for rolls to resolve everything. That isn't good DMing and that is a direct result of a ruleset that tells the players that they are #1, not the DM or the story.</p><p></p><p>I just finished up Dragon Heist last week. I actually doubled the length of time the adventure should have taken with homebrew materials. I found the adventure itself fairly flat without a lot of DM work and the challenge was pretty low. This week they are moving into level 1 of Undermountain. I was very excited when it was announced and preordered it asap. I am indifferent about it now after reading it though. It is NOT the "Oldest, largest, and deadliest dungeon crawl" that the 2E version was. It's a stripped down version with much of the "deadly" removed. I am sure my players will have fun with it. I am also sure I will add a LOT of homebrew to it, much on the fly, as I always do to make it exciting.</p><p></p><p>I have expounded a bit more than I had planned to in this reply. The more I read this thread the more I really miss the flavor of AD&D. It just seems to have lost it's "soul" in the quest to equalize everything and please everyone all the time.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Mepher, post: 7542359, member: 61277"] The point is that all classes have comparable fighting skill. In older editions your to hit was only affected by your STR modifier. Wizards usually put INT as their primary stat for # of spells and % chance to learn and Dexterity for the AC bonus. Now Wizards can put their main stats in INT for their Spell Save and Spell attack bonuses and Dexterity for their AC and Melee attack bonuses. You can deny it if you want but the wizard gets the same bonuses as a fighter does to attack. He just gets them from INT and DEX. As for going back to 3rd edition rules, that seems to be the go-to argument here. I never moved to 3.0/3.5/4.0 because of the rule and power creep. Anytime I compare editions its between 1E/2E and 5E. 5E was a response to the creep in later editions but in the process they took away much of what made AD&D so great. While I am currently running a 5E campaign, I find the game a bit flat when it comes to the "flavor" of original D&D. I know that it's popularity comes from the fact that everyone gets to do anything they want, all of the time. It wont take long to read these forums and realize that the current crop of players cannot fathom being told no when it comes to any type of player option. We get to hear endlessly about player agency and how dare anyone take that away from them. Things that made the world exciting and dangerous, such as lighting and darkness have now been trivialized by vision and cantrips. Things such as character advancement has been equalized so everyone gets that same warm fuzzy feeling all of the time. Level progression is equal, everyone gets to attack every round no matter what. Then you have simple things like Identify. In old editions if you didn't have a Wizard with the identify spell then identifying items might turn into a whole adventure on it's own. Never once in 30 years DMing did anyone ever complain to me about this mechanic. It was always a chance for more roleplaying. They might drag some mythical weapon out of a dungeon and take it back to their church. They send them on some quest to find out information about the weapon leading them to the discovery of it's ancient powers. While you can do exactly the same thing in 5E, the current crop of players might have a problem with that. 5E designers might still embrace Rule 0 - "Rules are nothing but guidelines", the average newer player doesn't. It's apparent with how much everyone loses their crap anytime someone wants to change rules to their liking. Everytime I post here I brace for impact when responses start coming in. Somehow what I do with my group seems to affect other's fun, or so they think. The good thing is that my group thinks like I do. We grew up playing other editions and can see the differences, good and bad. I do like some parts of 5E but I am not sure if it's enough to keep me here in the long run. My favorite quote from Gary Gygax that summarizes the game for me will goes so much against the current thinking of RPGs. I spend a minimum of 10x the amount of time working on my campaign that I run for my players than all of my players do combined outside of game. In fact, like most players they for the most part forget about this game outside of the game session. We have a discord server and we chat in it daily but as for real game "work" the players don't have much to do other than maybe update their character between sessions if the leveled or something. With that in mind I have always told my players that if any player chooses to actively derail something I have spent countless hours working on then they don't belong in my game. That isn't to say the players make unexpected choices, I mean a player actively trying to derail my game for the sake of their own enjoyment over others. To me that is what D&D is about. The DM provides a great world for the players to explore. It's not designed to coddle the players or give them what they want. It's a big dangerous world and that kill them at a moments notice but there is also great rewards to be had. If the players play smart, roleplay well, and are willing to risk it all it can be rewarding. I think most of that is lost these days. Gary says that the game is mastered by the DM, hence the title Dungeon Master. Today if you ask the average group they look at the DM more as the story teller and the players are the real masters of the game. Everyone loves to throw around that idea of player agency but how about DM agency. There are so many generic checks in 5E that many players simply ask to make checks anytime they want to do something. You can see it on the flood of 5E streams out there. I feel for the "new" DM out there today because the game teaches you to observe a bunch of dice rolls rather than adjucate a scenario. Sure there are some great DMs out there running these streams but there are also some that do nothing other than tell a story and ask for rolls to resolve everything. That isn't good DMing and that is a direct result of a ruleset that tells the players that they are #1, not the DM or the story. I just finished up Dragon Heist last week. I actually doubled the length of time the adventure should have taken with homebrew materials. I found the adventure itself fairly flat without a lot of DM work and the challenge was pretty low. This week they are moving into level 1 of Undermountain. I was very excited when it was announced and preordered it asap. I am indifferent about it now after reading it though. It is NOT the "Oldest, largest, and deadliest dungeon crawl" that the 2E version was. It's a stripped down version with much of the "deadly" removed. I am sure my players will have fun with it. I am also sure I will add a LOT of homebrew to it, much on the fly, as I always do to make it exciting. I have expounded a bit more than I had planned to in this reply. The more I read this thread the more I really miss the flavor of AD&D. It just seems to have lost it's "soul" in the quest to equalize everything and please everyone all the time. [/QUOTE]
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