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Most frustrating quirk of 5E?
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<blockquote data-quote="Harzel" data-source="post: 7542795" data-attributes="member: 6857506"><p>Trying to justify things I said in a rant is probably a fool's errand, <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite9" alt=":eek:" title="Eek! :eek:" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":eek:" /> but your questions seem legitimate, so I will try to supply answers.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>More the latter, but it was a generalization, so I'm not addressing any particular party. A particular party, of course, could be composed entirely of non-casters, but of the 12 PHB classes, 6 are casters that get cantrips, and (at least ?) 2 more have cantrip-bearing caster subclasses. Without getting into the unresolvable which-classes-are-played-most-frequently issue, I think it is fair to say that it is going to be very common to have half the party able to cast cantrips.</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>Yes.</p><p>But I suppose I could try to unpack what, for me, the [-]magic-in-name-only feeling[/-] <em>objection </em>hinges on.</p><p></p><p><em>EDIT: I noticed that the struck-through phrase didn't entirely represent what I actually prattled on about below.</em></p><p></p><p>1. At-will-ness: Definitely being at-will is the biggest contributor. If a character is able to sustain fairly rapid spell casting indefinitely, it feels to me like we should either be talking about a very high-level mage, or a high-magic setting. Since level 1 PCs are not high-level mages, it feels (as I mentioned somewhere above) like I am being forced by default into a high-magic setting (without, furthermore, an admission that that is the case). The only alternative I can see is to treat PC (and caster NPC) spell casting as dissociated from the rest of the world. And I guess, without exactly thinking about it that way, the latter is what I have done. The trouble is not only do I find that grating, but I have players that notice that kind of disconnect. I won't go so far as to say it wrecks immersion, but it does take a hit.</p><p></p><p>2. Effect: When the effect of a cantrip is solely single-target damage, that pretty much seals the deal for me. Sorry, that is, to me, a ranged weapon attack with a thin and not-at-all-credible veneer of fluff labeled 'magic'. While my objections in (1) still hold, a cantrip that has a rider (and does lesser damage) feels noticeably more like magic to me (but, in the end, not enough to assuage my discontent).</p><p></p><p>3. Usage: When a PC casts <em>Firebolt</em> round after round after round, if anything was needed to make the cantrip seem even more like a refluffed ranged weapon attack, that certain does it. While this isn't a system design problem <em>per se</em>, it is enabled and greatly encouraged by at-will abilities that do enough damage that the caster doesn't feel the need to find something more imaginative to do.</p><p></p><p>4. Resolution mechanism: While using an attack roll certainly adds another small bit to the sense that a cantrip is a refluffed weapon attack, I don't think some other mechanic would help noticeably. In fact, spells that are, fluff-wise, "like" a single-target weapon attack, but which nevertheless require a saving throw are really a PITA because a) you have to remember which ones they are (without any particular rhyme or reason), and b) instead of being able to have the player make the attack roll while I am doing something else, I have to roll the opponent's saving throw. (Yes, I could have the player make that roll, but that process is cumbersome enough that I might as well do it myself.)</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>Sure, and they do. But beyond catering to certain preferences, why is that a good thing in and of itself? Maybe I didn't make it clear enough, but IMO, that's actually a <em>bad</em> thing because I think playing a caster (or at least a wizard) <em>ought</em> to feel somewhat bumpy.</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>I'm not sure I understand what you are referring to here. 'Nova' usually refers to expending all your limited resources (or as many as possible) in one encounter. I could try to guess what you think the connection is to cantrips, but I'd rather you speak for yourself. (And if I'm being dense, I apologize.)</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>Well, I can see that it probably make balance easier to assess by making them more samey-samey. But I don't see how it otherwise 'helps' balance.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Harzel, post: 7542795, member: 6857506"] Trying to justify things I said in a rant is probably a fool's errand, :eek: but your questions seem legitimate, so I will try to supply answers. More the latter, but it was a generalization, so I'm not addressing any particular party. A particular party, of course, could be composed entirely of non-casters, but of the 12 PHB classes, 6 are casters that get cantrips, and (at least ?) 2 more have cantrip-bearing caster subclasses. Without getting into the unresolvable which-classes-are-played-most-frequently issue, I think it is fair to say that it is going to be very common to have half the party able to cast cantrips. Yes. But I suppose I could try to unpack what, for me, the [-]magic-in-name-only feeling[/-] [I]objection [/I]hinges on. [I]EDIT: I noticed that the struck-through phrase didn't entirely represent what I actually prattled on about below.[/I] 1. At-will-ness: Definitely being at-will is the biggest contributor. If a character is able to sustain fairly rapid spell casting indefinitely, it feels to me like we should either be talking about a very high-level mage, or a high-magic setting. Since level 1 PCs are not high-level mages, it feels (as I mentioned somewhere above) like I am being forced by default into a high-magic setting (without, furthermore, an admission that that is the case). The only alternative I can see is to treat PC (and caster NPC) spell casting as dissociated from the rest of the world. And I guess, without exactly thinking about it that way, the latter is what I have done. The trouble is not only do I find that grating, but I have players that notice that kind of disconnect. I won't go so far as to say it wrecks immersion, but it does take a hit. 2. Effect: When the effect of a cantrip is solely single-target damage, that pretty much seals the deal for me. Sorry, that is, to me, a ranged weapon attack with a thin and not-at-all-credible veneer of fluff labeled 'magic'. While my objections in (1) still hold, a cantrip that has a rider (and does lesser damage) feels noticeably more like magic to me (but, in the end, not enough to assuage my discontent). 3. Usage: When a PC casts [I]Firebolt[/I] round after round after round, if anything was needed to make the cantrip seem even more like a refluffed ranged weapon attack, that certain does it. While this isn't a system design problem [I]per se[/I], it is enabled and greatly encouraged by at-will abilities that do enough damage that the caster doesn't feel the need to find something more imaginative to do. 4. Resolution mechanism: While using an attack roll certainly adds another small bit to the sense that a cantrip is a refluffed weapon attack, I don't think some other mechanic would help noticeably. In fact, spells that are, fluff-wise, "like" a single-target weapon attack, but which nevertheless require a saving throw are really a PITA because a) you have to remember which ones they are (without any particular rhyme or reason), and b) instead of being able to have the player make the attack roll while I am doing something else, I have to roll the opponent's saving throw. (Yes, I could have the player make that roll, but that process is cumbersome enough that I might as well do it myself.) Sure, and they do. But beyond catering to certain preferences, why is that a good thing in and of itself? Maybe I didn't make it clear enough, but IMO, that's actually a [I]bad[/I] thing because I think playing a caster (or at least a wizard) [I]ought[/I] to feel somewhat bumpy. I'm not sure I understand what you are referring to here. 'Nova' usually refers to expending all your limited resources (or as many as possible) in one encounter. I could try to guess what you think the connection is to cantrips, but I'd rather you speak for yourself. (And if I'm being dense, I apologize.) Well, I can see that it probably make balance easier to assess by making them more samey-samey. But I don't see how it otherwise 'helps' balance. [/QUOTE]
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