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Message: <blockquote data-quote="El Ravager" data-source="post: 248362" data-attributes="member: 738">I have to go with Celebrim on this one.I am tired of this 'whatever makes you happy is okay' additude that seems to be so pervasive today.  When you get down to it, its not like the qualities that Celebrim advocated were all that radical.  I am sorry but any game that includes  is better than one that doesn't.  I know, I should not have used the 'B' word - someone might think that a judgement was being made.  Heaven forbid. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f644.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":rolleyes:" title="Roll eyes    :rolleyes:"  data-smilie="11"data-shortname=":rolleyes:" /> What Celebrim said didn't, at least to me, exclude hack and slash gaming at all.  Such a game can certainly be creative, and include thought provoking challenges, etc.  To me, books like the Epic Level Handbook don't really do much to add those elements, it just makes the numbers bigger.  Thats not to say that there is no place for the book.  To me, books like the ELH or MotP and what not merely change the flavor of the elements rather than really add to them.  Those books are fine, but it seems to be the sole focus of what is provided by WotC rather than feeding us things that help on the level Cerebrim described like a book on structuring campaings and adventures would.  Thats my thoughts on the matter anyway.=====El Rav</blockquote>

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