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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Felix" data-source="post: 1718108" data-attributes="member: 3929">Teslacoil1138: There are 27 skills besides Hide and Move silently on the Rogue's class skill list that you are ignoring. And as much as you tout Diplomacy, the Rogue can get a total +4 synergy to Diplomacy from both Sense Motive and Bluff easily, and with his abundance of skill points per level he can more easily afford the 10 skill points for the cross class Knowledge (Nobility & Royalty) that will give him another +2 to Diplomacy. So it is that much easier for the Rogue to have +6 higher in Diplomacy that you value so highly for the Druid.Let me say this again so you don't miss it:...I like the skill part of the game more than I like the spell-slinging or combat ability...So while you don't think skill points != versatility, other folks might. Sure, if you send a rogue in against NPCs that have max cross-class ranks in Spot and Listen as well as a high wisdom and Alertness, you the DM will beat the rogue's player. Congrats. But Hide and Move Silently skill bonuses can shoot up so bloody fast that once the player starts taking 10 on his rolls no non-twinked guard is going to hear him, and the likelyhood of any other NPC spotting him is slim to none. Especially if he's a small character.As long as you're hawking high-level druidic powers of shapeshifting at will, allow me to introduce you to a 4000gp item I like to call Ring of Sustanance. Or perhaps you'd perfer the 2500gp Ioun Stone that sustains you without food or water? Rations are one of the last things I've ever had to worry about.Thanee:At least you'd be specific if you did that. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> Hey, like I said, I'm a fan of the skill-using classes more than the spell-caster or combat brute classes. Why? Because every single Druid has every single spell that on his spell list available to cast. Rogues on the other hand must decide between 29 class skills to make their character an individual. Seeing a druid in wildshape is vanilla. "Oh, Wow! I there's another druid that can take the shape of a viper!" I think it is more elegant to see a particular set of class skills chosen to perform a certain way do so.I think perhaps the disagreement here is simple. I think that given any situation, (with the exception of toe-to-toe melee hacking, but sometimes even then) you can use the rogue class to build a PC that will handle the problem. I do not think that any individual rogue character is going to be able to handle every problem thrown at him as well as other classes. Solo playing was mentioned earlier... there are some jobs that individual rogues just have to say no to. Perhaps you all are arguing the side that any druid PC is going to be able to apply himself to any situation and come away well? If that is the topic, then you are correct. Druid wins, and I'll stop making overly long posts. Any particular druid character will be more equipped to handle any random situation better than any particular rogue character. But since the thread is called "Most versatile single class" I have not been considering how individual builds would stack up to each other as much as how well can this class be applied to any given problem.Put it this way, the only differences between one PC of a class and another PC of the same class are Skills and Feats (with an exception for the arcane caster's choice of spells).Barbarian: Medium skills, Average FeatsBard: High skills, Average FeatsCleric: Low skills, Average FeatsDruid: Medium skills, Average FeatsFighter: Low skills, Super-high FeatsMonk: Medium skills, Above average Feats (choice twixt two bonus feats)Paladin: Low skills, Average FeatsRanger: High skills, Above average Feats (weapon style feats)Rogue: Uber skills, Above average Feats (Rogue special abilities)Sorcerer: Low skills, Average FeatsWizard: Low skills, Above average FeatsI think the Rogue's combination of Uber skills (combining both class list and skill points/level) and Above average Feat aquisition makes the Rogue class more malleable than the other classes. Because it is more malleable, it becomes more versatile.Make sense?If this means "what class allows individual characters to bring everything to the table" then the argument favors the Druid. No disagreement here.If it means "what class can bring everything to the table", then I think the rogue takes it. Maybe I'm just taking the title too literally. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />A party of rogues will be able to fill the 4 traditional roles and none of them will be stepping on any of the other character's shoes. Face Rogue, Mechanic Rogue, Fighting Rogue (it bloody well is possible), "Casting" Rogue. They will operate well and nobody will encroach on anyone else's schtick. A party of druids will be farily well homogenous. They will all have Spellcraft, Survival, Know(nature), Concentration, and maybe even Diplomacy. And they will be competing for the spotlight every single time something comes up because there is not as much to differentiate themselves from each other as there is between the rogues. I say this rigidity is not class versatility.And Thanee, you underestimate yourself if you think you need spell lists to post overly-long posts. I don't need 'em! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" /></blockquote>

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