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Message: <blockquote data-quote="zeela" data-source="post: 373719" data-attributes="member: 7639">I think we are confusing real life with game balance here. There are many situations in the rules where reality is sacrificed for the sake of fairness and balance. So that's great that in martial arts you learned to roll and tumble and you were almost silent. To you it might be very realistic to give a bonus to a MS when tumbling. But what about game balance?Let's see. What are the benefits of moving silently? If you are invisible, you can move without your opponents hearing you, which means they won't know where you are and have a pretty crappy chance of guessing the right square.What are the benefits of tumbling? Even those enemies who heard you (or who can smell you with scent, or who can see invisible creatures) will at least not get an AoO on you. This will protect you if somebody makes the listen DC.So, you suggest to give a bonus to MS when tumbling? Why would any rogue in their right mind, or anybody with ranks in both, ever move without tumbling? Especially if they are a halfling or such who can only move 20ft anyway. So back to game balance. What you are suggesting is that this rogue or anybody with some ranks in both, could never be heard and never provoke AoOs. Any 10th level or so rogue will have anouth ranks and magic items to not fail the tumble or set close to impossible listen DCs. I don't think that sounds balanced, it makes invisibility way to powerful.---Regarding provoking AoO's when invisible. Correct, if you don't see somebody, you might not know what they are doing. Might, that is, if you rely only on your eyes. That's what the listen check is for. In this case we are talking about a move, so it's easy. You should be able to make a listen check to know if somebody that you know is invisible is trying to get by you through severl squares you threaten. If you make it, you get your AoO. You still have the 50% miss chance etc for concealment. There is a big difference between concealment and physical cover.Also, I agree that a listen check would only work this way if the opponent was very close to you anyway. Otherwise it would maybe let you know the general direction the invisible person moved to or something like that. In this particular case though the character was right next to opponents, was trying to move through several threatened squares.And also, jontherev, you're right in that you'd only know where he is until he moves again, but in this case that's all they needed. Of course you don't gain blind sight because of one listen check, but you can attempt to keep making listen checks if the invisible character keeps moving around. On the other hand I could see that ruling whether you provoke an AoO if you pull out and drink a potion while invisible and standing next to an opponent could be harder. The opponent doesn't necessarily know you're letting your guard down. Could make it a full-round action because you are trying to be extra quiet, or let the DM set a listen DC to here the character drinking. Different options depending on the situation.But generally, just because your invisible doesn't mean your invulnerable. I fully agree with you, Bret.---Also, a lot of people argued that he should be able to do these things because he is a rogue. But let's forget that for a minute. How would you all answer this question if you didn't know it was a rogue? The specific question here was "Can a characther move silently while tumbling? What should the DC penalty on the tumble be? Or the negative skill modifier on the move silently?" It doesn't have anything to do with the class. Would you all feel different if it had been the party's monk? Or the wizard? Or, behold, the barbarian (all of which would most likely not wear armor with an armor check penalty)?---Having said all that I think a lot of us could come up with plenty of situations where one ruling doesn't apply, or this is different or that... In the above case I think the DM made an OK decision. And the DM is always right anyway, especially if something is not specifically mentioned in the rules.Thanks for listening. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />PS: Please don't make a comment regarding my post count. Just because I may be new to this particular board doesn't mean I'm new to DnD or that I don't know the rules. Thanks.[ edit: OK, I get it, it was a joke all along. My bad. ]</blockquote>

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