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<blockquote data-quote="NPC" data-source="post: 373819" data-attributes="member: 7124">jonthrev, what zeela said.&nbsp; <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />&nbsp; I totally agree with her that not provoking AoO's while being invisible is unbalancing and AFAIK, not by the rules.As to your point about pinpointing the exact square of an invisible opponent 150' feet away, I believe there is a Listen check penalty of -2(?) per 10 feet(?) of distance you are from the target.&nbsp; So on a rough estimate, I'd give a minus 30 penalty to the Listen check in your example.&nbsp; Obviously only a few highly buffed/skilled/itemed guys are going to make that.&nbsp; And if you're trying to find an invisible rogue at 150', forget about it.IIRC, you never make a Spot check against an invisible opponent.&nbsp; What's there to spot?&nbsp; So no, I wouldn't don't do a Spot/Listen combo check to find invisible opponents.&nbsp; A &quot;normal&quot; creature with no special abilities must use his Listen check to find invisible opponents.&nbsp; Other combinations of skills are houserules, IMO.And I disagree with you about what you can sense from the Listen check.&nbsp; Yes, if I make a successful Listen check, I would hear the enemy moving towards me to start a grapple, I would hear him ruffling through his clothes searching for a potion, I would hear him tearing a bandage, I would hear him speaking verbal components.&nbsp; AFAIK, the rules support this interpretation.&nbsp; You say the rules are irrelevant here but I don't think so.&nbsp; This is the rules forum afterall.&nbsp; <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink&nbsp; &nbsp; ;)"&nbsp; data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />&nbsp;&nbsp; We're trying to find out how, by the rules, to resolve moving silently while tumbling.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="NPC, post: 373819, member: 7124"] jonthrev, what zeela said. :) I totally agree with her that not provoking AoO's while being invisible is unbalancing and AFAIK, not by the rules. As to your point about pinpointing the exact square of an invisible opponent 150' feet away, I believe there is a Listen check penalty of -2(?) per 10 feet(?) of distance you are from the target. So on a rough estimate, I'd give a minus 30 penalty to the Listen check in your example. Obviously only a few highly buffed/skilled/itemed guys are going to make that. And if you're trying to find an invisible rogue at 150', forget about it. IIRC, you never make a Spot check against an invisible opponent. What's there to spot? So no, I wouldn't don't do a Spot/Listen combo check to find invisible opponents. A "normal" creature with no special abilities must use his Listen check to find invisible opponents. Other combinations of skills are houserules, IMO. And I disagree with you about what you can sense from the Listen check. Yes, if I make a successful Listen check, I would hear the enemy moving towards me to start a grapple, I would hear him ruffling through his clothes searching for a potion, I would hear him tearing a bandage, I would hear him speaking verbal components. AFAIK, the rules support this interpretation. You say the rules are irrelevant here but I don't think so. This is the rules forum afterall. ;) We're trying to find out how, by the rules, to resolve moving silently while tumbling. [/QUOTE]

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