Much ado about dungeons

[Walking Paradox]

I love dungeon crawls. As much as I love playing a character with a personality and hopes and dreams that are part of a living story, it's still great fun to take that character into a deep, dank, desolate place and kill lots of disgusting creatures; then take their stuff. The best pleasures in life are often simple ones.

That having been said, there are two things about them that I have often wondered in the last 30 years that I've been gaming…

1. How do you breathe in them? Even modern mines need air vents of some kind. Where does the air come from for dungeons?
2. Do they ever have a purpose other than being just complex cosmopolitain monster lairs? Do people ever make up real stories as to what purpose the dungeon "facility" is supposed to have, who built it, and why? What about the reason for there being enough treasure there to double or tripple the economies of most real-life medieval nations?

Maybe I should think less and kill more…

 

[Aberzanzorax]

Depending upon the size and shape there could be some air circulation. Some "smarter" dungeons actually recognize the air problem and players must take precautions. Some more "hand wavey" dungeons just assume breathing is possible.

I like the idea of a fungus or mold that can live like a desert plant does on water, but does so on carbon dioxide (pumping out oxygen when it gets CO2). It's a quick and easy solution, players are always freaked out by fungus, and fungus fits with the "theme" of dungeons.


As far as a story, most dungeons I've seen have a story. This includes Tomb of Horrors, World's Largest Dungeon, Rappan Athuk, and Castle Whiterock. Even Undermountain had at least a hint of story (though I confess I don't know if it's much more than "a crazy mage made a dungeon because he's crazy").

 

[Dykstrav]

I also love a good dungeon crawl, although for somewhat different reasons.

I like the factor of exploration more than killing things and taking their stuff. A cavern complex of orcs? Meh. The ancient barrow-tombs of a sorcerer from a vanished civilization? Hand me my ten-foot pole and iron rations, please.

I believe that a supplement during the 3.5 era (was it Dungeonscape?) had a discussion about dungeon ecology. It did address some real-world concerns, but boiled down to, "this is a dungeon, not an ecology experiment, your players are never going to notice how the food chain doesn't quite work or ask you how these creatures get air down there." It's basically hand-waving, but there's nothing wrong with that unless the GM and players want it differently.

By default, I sort of require that a dungeon has a background and be somewhat logical in its design and layout. As a player, it just won't hold my interest if it's a series of encounters linked by corridors. As a GM, coming up with reasons for what the characters find is at least as important as what they find. Let me share with you a dungeon that I'm working on for my upcoming Pathfinder game.

The characters are searching for an artifact, and their investigation has lead them to a temple dedicated to Demogorgon. This temple is located deep in a marsh, and takes the form of a ziggurat surrounded by brackish water. At the top of the ziggurat is a single shaft leading down--it goes all the way through the ziggurat to and underground lake where the demon-worshippers breed aquatic monsters. Tunnels branch off of the main shaft, leading to different areas of the complex.

The upper levels are reserved for worship. The temple has two main altars and two high priests. Demogorgon has two heads that are often at odds with one another, each priest serves one of the two heads. Depending on what they do, they might earn the favor of one faction or the other and get carte blanche from that faction to raise all sorts of hell in the other faction's stuff. If the characters rile both sides, they'll have to deal with them both at the same time (with far more difficulty).

The mid-levels are quarters, storage, and the like. They've deliberately sandwiched the living quarters between both the upper and lower levels in an attempt to have some line of defense in case of invasion--characters will have to fight their way through the upper or lower levels first, giving the rest of the temple a chance to regroup and establish a perimeter (or escape, as the case may be).

The lower levels are at the underground lake, where monsters are bred. You could theoretically get into the temple here by swimming through the water outside. This place has fiendish crocodiles, gars, piranhas, and other aquatic or amphibious things. Ritual sacrifices are carried out here by dangling living creatures from the shaft above, so the resident monsters are well-trained to respond to creatures descending through the shaft on ropes.

 

[Jhaelen]

1. How do you breathe in them? Even modern mines need air vents of some kind. Where does the air come from for dungeons?
2. Do they ever have a purpose other than being just complex cosmopolitain monster lairs? Do people ever make up real stories as to what purpose the dungeon "facility" is supposed to have, who built it, and why? What about the reason for there being enough treasure there to double or tripple the economies of most real-life medieval nations?

Earthdawn holds the answers you are looking for

 

[Reynard]

Earthdawn holds the answers you are looking for

Yes, yes it does. By far, Earthdawn is the best professional Fantasy Heartbreaker of them all.

On topic: Dungeons of Golarion is a great resource for seeing how dungeons can be built around a story, as it Dragon's Delve of Mont Cook's Dungeon-a-Day. But the hands down best dungeon reference ever put to paper is the Dungeon Alphabet by Goodman Games.

 

[Celebrim]

ow do you breathe in them? Even modern mines need air vents of some kind. Where does the air come from for dungeons?

DMs that have thought this far ahead totally impress me. One of the things about realism in your dungeon design is that it tends to be empowering to those folks that have to assault the dungeon. I mean sure, Ascerak's tomb needs know concessions to reality, but most dungeon complexes pobably should.

Do they ever have a purpose other than being just complex cosmopolitain monster lairs? Do people ever make up real stories as to what purpose the dungeon "facility" is supposed to have, who built it, and why?

Maybe its just best to repost my thoughts.

What about the reason for there being enough treasure there to double or triple the economies of most real-life medieval nations?

This is the one that has always bothered me particularly. Quite often you read the description of the dungeon and its crammed full of treasure, and everyone in the nearby town knows it is there, and the people of the town are actually of higher level than the PCs.

If the dungeon is well known, and the rumors of its treasure so easy to come by, and its inhabitants so weak in comparison to the vast wealth that they control, why hasn't someone come along in the past X centuries and claimed the treasure? Why hasn't some other higher level adventuring group come along and cleared this place out quite easily? This is particularly true of low level modules where some local lord and two score mercenaries would quite possibly more effectively dispatch the inhabitants than the party would. This is even more true in settings like FR where it seems everyone is high level.

And where did this treasure come from in the first place? How was this small community so secure in its wealth, that it decided to bury millions of dollars worth of treasure to adorn its dead? If they were Egyptian in outlook, why didn't the original tomb builders rob the tombs Egytian style? If the community persisted for a long time, how did they sustain the economic drain if the treasure wasn't in some fashion being returned to the economy? Why did the heirs of the dead not take their inheritance? Why didn't the original inhabitants take the treasure with them when they moved out? Why haven't later inhabitants found the treasure and either spent it or moved it to a more secure place? Why is this magic sword just lying here/in a chest/stuck on the wall, when the bugbear in the next room is perfectly proficient in its use? I take a certain satisfaction in designing a dungeon in such a way that I know most of the treasure won't make it out, because it gives me some justification for why the treasure was there in the first place.

Why are dungeons almost in pristine condition before the PC's arrive, and totally wrecked afterwards. You mean no adventurers have come along in the past 10 centuries? If not, then why not.

And so on and so forth.

 

[nedjer]

Oxygen yielding rocks, jellyfish, fungi and lichens are naturally occurring in dungeon environments. Or they are if you don't want a sub-network of tunnels for PCs and monsters to escape in and out of at random.

GG's D and G modules are dungeons with culture classics. There's a shed load of stuff on this over on my Wooo - Ennies nominated - site in the RPG Cookbook section. It's all topsy-turvy right now converting from posts to pages to make a canvas for an ARG, but the current Cookbook material is good to go.

 

[Lord Crimson]

How do you breathe in them? Even modern mines need air vents of some kind. Where does the air come from for dungeons?

Air rock. Duh!

Actually, I just assume that there are small vents combined with oxygen-yielding plant life - sort of as nedjer suggests. Of course, it all eventually leads to the great Underdark caverns deep under the earth... So, maybe there's just so much air that it's never really come up.

Any more thought than this just sort of pushes past "reasonable expectation" for any GM who isn't also some kind of mining engineer.

Do they ever have a purpose other than being just complex cosmopolitain monster lairs? Do people ever make up real stories as to what purpose the dungeon "facility" is supposed to have, who built it, and why? What about the reason for there being enough treasure there to double or tripple the economies of most real-life medieval nations?
Maybe I should think less and kill more…

Well, as others have mentioned, there's lots of history in many of the "official" dungeons of old.. B1 is positively filled with backstory and history, along with several hints about more details in the descriptions of the rooms themselves.

I certainly like to include something on the original function if I can manage it... but it often just ends up being something like: "it's a labyrinthine tomb" or "it's the remains of an evil temple" for those occasions when the killing of monsters and socializing is more the point than anything like: "find out why this place exists".

 

[Reynard]

On the "story" of a dungeon: Assuming we are discussing a megadungeon (a vast, multi-level dungeon that has many kinds of inhabitants and levels) most of the "story" of a mega-dungeon comes from its history. It was dug very long ago, by some mad wizard or would-be god or vile conqueror. It served a purpose then, as a fortress or laboratory or prison or home, or perhaps all at once. But then something went wrong. The creator died or disappeared or was defeated, and the place was forgotten by "normal" folk. But not by everyone. Dark things, creatures of chaos, are drawn to it, and over the decades, centuries and millenia, it's original purpose is forgotten and the dungeon lives many lives again -- sometimes individually, but more often many at a time.

It is expanded and refitted and re-purposed and, occasionally, invaded and sacked by rivals or treasure hunters. This goes on in cycles over the ages, and history layers upon history, until whatever point it is discovered prior to the arrival of the PCs on the scene. Perhaps they find it just outside their home town, and are the first "civilized" people to explore it in an age. Perhaps it opens up to spew out darkness and evil and when that tide of hate is thrown back into the pit, it remains to be explored. Perhaps a whole generation has gone by since previous explorers discovered it and the first few levels are moderately well mapped and explored.

And then, when the campaign begins, so does the "story" -- or more likely, many stories. The dungeon is there to be explored. It is the promise of fortune and glory that drives the PCs ever deeper. Or, the PCs have a goal. Something within draws them ever downward, some relic they need or must destroy or what have you. A good mega-dungeon can survive not just multiple adventures, but multiple campaigns. While exploring for the simple sake of exploration is great fun, motivating goals are often better: they drive the PCs to go further, and tend to leave areas of the dungeon unexplored (and thus good for future use).

 

[Stormonu]

To be honest, I'd never even thought about the idea that dungeons would need additional "venting" for breathing. Which makes me wonder, if this is true, how are the following places "oxygenated"? And these are honest questions, if anyone knows the answers...

1) The Catacombs under Rome

2) Carlsbad Caverns

3) Derinkuyu, the underground city of Cappadocia