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<blockquote data-quote="Dannyalcatraz" data-source="post: 5800794" data-attributes="member: 19675">It's not vacuous at all.A 1st level Ftr has things that simply cannot be gained via feats or other means short of multiclassing- besides the freebie feats, they get a bonus feat, a BAB higher and more accellerated in rate of increase than all but other warrior classes, larger HD.&nbsp; The Cleric gets Turn Undead &amp; full divine casting.&nbsp; The wizard &amp; Sorc have full arcane casting.&nbsp; The Rogue has the highest rate of accumulating skill points.&nbsp; Monks get special treatment for their unarmed attacks.&nbsp; Other classes have abilities that are likewise available by taking levels in those classes (some of which are similar to or identical to those in the PHB classes).None of which are available any other way than via multiclassing.&nbsp; The class is thus the base, irreducible unit for gaining those abilities in D&amp;D's system.(Don't know PF well enough to comment.)Just because there are two roads to a destination does not mean one is less good or beautiful- they're just different.As I said before, I don't know jack about themes, and AFAIK, there is no Feat that grants rage.If there is an ACF that grants rage, that still makes it a feature of a class.And the fact that there may be more than one way in a game to make a &quot;barbarian&quot; doesn't mean the archetype in the Barbarian class is dead.&nbsp; It just means you can now make more than one kind of barbarian.Taking your joke seriously for a second, this actually gets to part of what I'm talking about when I say that 4Ed doesn't feel like D&amp;D to me, but rather, feels like a completely different FRPG.Whenever I play a FRPG, I try to make my PCs fit within the game.&nbsp; Even though I'm a &quot;concept first&quot; PC designer, I don't design my PCs the same way for D&amp;D as I do for Fantasy HERO, which is different from Earthdawn, which is different from Talisantha, which is different from Harn, which is different from GURPS, etc.It's not that I have a strict set of guidelines that I refer to and say, &quot;Nope, that's a Harn PC, I can't make her in D&amp;D.&quot;&nbsp; It's a bit more subconscious than that...but the results are plain as the character sheets.&nbsp; The PCs I play in the various FRPGs generally have a distinctive feel, like they were made by different people.And the 4Ed PCs just look...different...from everything that went before.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Dannyalcatraz, post: 5800794, member: 19675"] It's not vacuous at all. A 1st level Ftr has things that simply cannot be gained via feats or other means short of multiclassing- besides the freebie feats, they get a bonus feat, a BAB higher and more accellerated in rate of increase than all but other warrior classes, larger HD. The Cleric gets Turn Undead & full divine casting. The wizard & Sorc have full arcane casting. The Rogue has the highest rate of accumulating skill points. Monks get special treatment for their unarmed attacks. Other classes have abilities that are likewise available by taking levels in those classes (some of which are similar to or identical to those in the PHB classes). None of which are available any other way than via multiclassing. The class is thus the base, irreducible unit for gaining those abilities in D&D's system. (Don't know PF well enough to comment.) Just because there are two roads to a destination does not mean one is less good or beautiful- they're just different. As I said before, I don't know jack about themes, and AFAIK, there is no Feat that grants rage. If there is an ACF that grants rage, that still makes it a feature of a class. And the fact that there may be more than one way in a game to make a "barbarian" doesn't mean the archetype in the Barbarian class is dead. It just means you can now make more than one kind of barbarian. Taking your joke seriously for a second, this actually gets to part of what I'm talking about when I say that 4Ed doesn't feel like D&D to me, but rather, feels like a completely different FRPG. Whenever I play a FRPG, I try to make my PCs fit within the game. Even though I'm a "concept first" PC designer, I don't design my PCs the same way for D&D as I do for Fantasy HERO, which is different from Earthdawn, which is different from Talisantha, which is different from Harn, which is different from GURPS, etc. It's not that I have a strict set of guidelines that I refer to and say, "Nope, that's a Harn PC, I can't make her in D&D." It's a bit more subconscious than that...but the results are plain as the character sheets. The PCs I play in the various FRPGs generally have a distinctive feel, like they were made by different people. And the 4Ed PCs just look...different...from everything that went before. [/QUOTE]

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