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<blockquote data-quote="Blue" data-source="post: 7458412" data-attributes="member: 20564">Spells:&nbsp; There are some quite good 2nd level spells.&nbsp; And, of course if you are mixing caster and non-caster you're also losing spell slots known - something I hadn't mentioned the first time around but there's a big difference between 2 first level slots and 4 first level plus 3 second level slots.+1 hit/damage I assume is your assumption for the ASI.&nbsp; That and +1 DC is a common ASI at 4th - both affecting more and doing more damage when you do.&nbsp; The other choice being a feat.&nbsp; If you'd like to say that a feat and no feat are about the same in power, I will have to disagree.Initial benefit of a subclass varies, but some are quite overwhelming.&nbsp; Do you feel like these are of no import?<ul>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">Bear Totem barbarian's expansion of Resistance to all damage but psychic?</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">Moon druid's Combat Form?</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">Battlemaster's Superiority dice?</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">Paladin's oath with oath spells and channel divinity</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">Warlock pact?</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">Wizard's arcane traditions, like Arcane Ward from Abjuration or Portent for Divination?</li>
</ul>And that leaves off all the other features I listed that were not addressed: # of rages, spell points, action surge, ki, divine smite, sneak attack damage,&nbsp; and invocations.I can respect that you stand by your original statement.&nbsp; I'll leave my numeration of the benefits of levels 2-4 here so that others can make up their own minds.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Blue, post: 7458412, member: 20564"] Spells: There are some quite good 2nd level spells. And, of course if you are mixing caster and non-caster you're also losing spell slots known - something I hadn't mentioned the first time around but there's a big difference between 2 first level slots and 4 first level plus 3 second level slots. +1 hit/damage I assume is your assumption for the ASI. That and +1 DC is a common ASI at 4th - both affecting more and doing more damage when you do. The other choice being a feat. If you'd like to say that a feat and no feat are about the same in power, I will have to disagree. Initial benefit of a subclass varies, but some are quite overwhelming. Do you feel like these are of no import? [LIST] [*]Bear Totem barbarian's expansion of Resistance to all damage but psychic? [*]Moon druid's Combat Form? [*]Battlemaster's Superiority dice? [*]Paladin's oath with oath spells and channel divinity [*]Warlock pact? [*]Wizard's arcane traditions, like Arcane Ward from Abjuration or Portent for Divination? [/LIST] And that leaves off all the other features I listed that were not addressed: # of rages, spell points, action surge, ki, divine smite, sneak attack damage, and invocations. I can respect that you stand by your original statement. I'll leave my numeration of the benefits of levels 2-4 here so that others can make up their own minds. [/QUOTE]

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